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Là á Bhlàir's math na Càirdean
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
or so i was last night.

The club had its regular commitee meeting and during the meeting a proposal was put forward that due to increasing site fees/petrol prices when future training is carried out the instructors site entry fees and/or a contribution to petrol should be paid for by the divers recieving the training. I was totally against this idea as it seemed to me to go against the spirit of BSAC "voluntary instructors" i.e training is done because you enjoy instructing and not because you feel obligated or feel you need renumeration.

During the argument comments like "you have paid for a dive but you do not get proper dives in as you are restricted by the trainees experience/qualifications" where put forward, which I think was a totally pointless argument. I do sympathise that alot of time is put in by the Instructors and as one pointed out to me he has commiteed hundreds of hours of instruction and spent hundreds of pounds on travel/ entry fees, but then if you have an issue don't instruct

Before anyone asks I have myself spent much time at Leybourne/guildy and stony helping out so i have been there

Maybe i am being cynical but the proposal has been put forward by several people who have just passed their IFC, I did not hear them suggesting that we pay the instructors when they where recieving their training. Also, where do you draw the line, as expeditions officer i spent much time phoning booking boats, accomodation and chasing people up ect. Do i start putting in itemised bills for phone usage:frown:

I spent several years on my village parish council and if the guys in the club think that they are being put upon time wise and expenses wise then they ought to sit on their parich council and yet despite the long hours and time needed to commited i never expected to recieved "renumeration" as I had volunteerd to do this.

The proposal is going to the vote in our next AGM and i for one (i imagine the only person) will vote no
 

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I think you got it right when you said if you don't want the hassle, don't instruct. Surely people know the set up?

If you want to get paid for instructing, go to a commercial organisation.

Yes, with BSAC it is voluntary. And this means you don't have to do it if you don't want to.

BTW, at Chepstow, the instructor gets in free with a certain number of students paying entry fee to the site.
 

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BTW, at Chepstow, the instructor gets in free with a certain number of students paying entry fee to the site.
I think I have seen the same system at Vobster, but I think there is a minimum number of students and I doubt that would apply to a BSAC instructor where normally it is one instructor to a student.

When I was under instruction I was happy to pay my instructors entry fee and get the teas in, most seemed to be happy with this, which is what your club are proposing but mine was less of an obligation more of a personal choice.
 

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I am a person NOT a number
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Our club instructors are all given a little book similar to a bank paying in book. Whenever they are instructing and their is an admission fee then they record ,date,student,location and at membership renewal this is given to the treasurer who deducts it from their membership fees.

Instructors do not receive any other monies for their out of pocket expenses and this system was voted in and agreed by the general membership. All our instructors vary in their preferences in teaching, some will only do pool work, some do theory, some do open water (quarries) and finally some do openwater (sea.)
It works at our club and I dont think any of the instructors wish to become fully paid up instructors like other diving organisations.
 

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Là á Bhlàir's math na Càirdean
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I think I have seen the same system at Vobster, but I think there is a minimum number of students and I doubt that would apply to a BSAC instructor where normally it is one instructor to a student.

When I was under instruction I was happy to pay my instructors entry fee and get the teas in, most seemed to be happy with this, which is what your club are proposing but mine was less of an obligation more of a personal choice.

I think you have hit the nail on the head Fiona, if a trainee wishes to pay for their instructors entry then fine, I have on a number of occasions when I have been training, But what i do not agree with is making it compulsory.
 

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All hail the mighty ZOM
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When teaching I'll normally drive the student to Stoney (or somewhere) and pay my own entry fee. They normally get the teas in and possibly a McBreakfast. The club pays for the Stoney membership.

Our take on it is that if a student pays for entry, hires a suit, gets a fill, pays for petrol costs that's the best part of £30- not a cheap day out. If they then have to fork out another tenner for the instructor then many wouldn't come.
 

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You really think it's unreasonable? And its certainly not uncommon!

Its not like they're making any money out of it, it will cover some of their direct out-of-pocket expenses. When I was teaching regularly we'd maybe do one or two days a week at Stoney, just considering entry fees and petrol it'd cost £15 a day. Now while I do like diving, there's no way i'd dive that often if I wasn't needed to instruct, and certainly couldn't afford to keep paying to do so myself. So the options are to either reimburse some of my expenses, or simply accept that I can only teach a tiny fraction of the time I would otherwise do.

Unless you're club is allowing a lot of expense claims, it will still be costing your instructors every time they go to teach!

Of course, you have to consider more carefully those trips that aren't solely for training - if you're teaching DSMB from a hardboat then as it doesn't affect 90% of the dive, and you'll enjoy the rest of it, then paying expenses for that wouldn't be appropriate. Common sense should be applied!

David
 

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This really is a double edged sword. I am happy to take people in AND pay my entrance fee and pay travel costs. For our club going to the Cape this results in about £20 a go. Some people just can not afford to keep paying this day in day out.

It then results in Instructors who wont instruct and then the branch gets a bad name.

I have asked this question before too and I dont really know the answer.

Gary
 

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Team Tricky: Diving with Twins
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Instructors at the club I used to belong to could claim back their expenses for training from the club. I imagine that the club fees were pitched to cover it, and the fees were quite reasonable. I got the impression though that the instructors often waived the right to claim back the expenses.
 

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PADI Internet Specialty Diver
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Why on earth would someone spend their weekend teaching instead of diving then pay to do so? I think its totally reasonable to expect all your expenses to be covered. Whether that's out of club funds or directly by the trainees is a club decision. Saying "if you have an issue don't instruct" means one or two folk do all the work then get fed up and jack it in then the trainees don't finish their courses and they jack up too. Welcome to the real world of ever-shrinking BSAC clubs.....

Chris
 

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Là á Bhlàir's math na Càirdean
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Why on earth would someone spend their weekend teaching instead of diving then pay to do so? I think its totally reasonable to expect all your expenses to be covered. Whether that's out of club funds or directly by the trainees is a club decision. Saying "if you have an issue don't instruct" means one or two folk do all the work then get fed up and jack it in then the trainees don't finish their courses and they jack up too. Welcome to the real world of ever-shrinking BSAC clubs.....

Chris


So where do you draw the line, I have spent much time over the years booking trips, chasing people for payments ect but yet have never asked or expected renumeration. I have taken equipment up to kent diving for repairs, cylinders for filling all on my time and out of my pocket (petrol wise). Maybe you are right and club diving has had it's day. If you start adding instructors entry fees, commitee members telephone bills then with spiralling costs you might as well opt for a PADI course
 

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In vobster its every four students for a free instructor.

In our club, i think it works quite well, is when we go to sites such as horsea and Vobby the student will pay up front for thier entry but the instructors costs if a trainee instructor i.e. just passed IFC only pays half and the full instructors are paid for out of the club account, so effectivaly as we've all been a trainee at some point every one in the club kind of pays a little towards instruction when paying their fees and a little is used from the total cost of the course paid by the student.

Chris Middleton's 0.00p worth
 

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PADI Internet Specialty Diver
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Maybe you are right and club diving has had it's day. If you start adding instructors entry fees, commitee members telephone bills then with spiralling costs you might as well opt for a PADI course
No I don't think club diving has had its day at all. Simply that training is an item that people purchase and that its cost via a club is not noticeably cheaper than via a school. A group of people that get together to dive and book a boat as a group or even own a boat as a group can be a very successful club.

Society does change over time and the economic models of service provision change with it. Perhaps we are more selfish in the post-Thatcher era, I don't know. People do, I am sure, expect things more quickly now. The Internet is part of that instantaneous delivery system. The piss-winded route to a diving qualification is less and less appealing for the majority of new divers. So if clubs want to use training as a recruitment tool they need to shorten their overall training time.

If you want people to do what you want you have to go some way towards what they want. Your instructors want expenses? So pay them. No expenses - no instructors - no resource - no training - no new members....

Tough decision TBH.

Chris
 

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So, I take in students. Give up a "reasonable" dive to sit in 15m water carrying out drills and skills.
Costs? fuel to and from site, carparking, possible entry fees, Kittylitter/batteries/cells,O2 (get free air from club.)
If diving from the club RIB the student pays the dive fee, the instuctor doesn't pay.
Am I happy about this? - Yes otherwise I wouldn't do it.
Currently the branch doesn't charge for training - a BIG bone of contention!
 

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So, I take in students. Give up a "reasonable" dive to sit in 15m water carrying out drills and skills.
Costs? fuel to and from site, carparking, possible entry fees, Kittylitter/batteries/cells,O2 (get free air from club.)...
I do hope you're not teaching OC while using RB !!

Currently the branch doesn't charge for training - a BIG bone of contention!
Its not about "charging" for training its about expenses and who pays them.

As a student I pay my instructors' expenses. Its included in the course fees or charged separately. This has always been the case. With club-based training the instructor expenses can either be part of the overall branch fees or paid direct by the recipient of the training. The only other alternative is the instructor pays to teach. Run out of people that are prepared to pay to teach and training stops.

Chris
 

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Is there any kind of change to the regulations involved if you start asking students to contribute? I once heard it can cause problems, even if they are just contributing towards entrance and petrol. Basically it becomes a business and there are all sorts of additional liability insurance etc required.

I might have got this totally wrong as well....:embarassed:
 

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PADI Internet Specialty Diver
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Is there any kind of change to the regulations involved if you start asking students to contribute? I once heard it can cause problems, even if they are just contributing towards entrance and petrol. Basically it becomes a business and there are all sorts of additional liability insurance etc required.

I might have got this totally wrong as well....:embarassed:
No. The BSAC rules and tax rules and HSE rules are all quite clear.

The instructor is entitled to receive expenses payments for his/her efforts. Only if that person receives more than their expenses (ie make a profit) does the activity become commercial.

The BSAC IIRC has agreed rates for mileage and so on. (Certainly the tax folks do)

If the instructor makes a "few bob" on the side then it is a business and you are correct there are insurance issues and so on. Defining "income" is an interesting debate that pops up from time to time...:)

Chris
 
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