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Small, yet perfectly formed...
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Little'un is wanting her own dive computer because her brother has got one. This could be construed as an excellent reason to give her my basic air one (nice and easy to use Suunto, 18 months old) and get a better nitrox one for me , ready for when I do my nitrox course. I want one that will be the only one I will ever need. I like the ease of use of Suunto so so was looking at the Vytec. Anyone got any comments on other computers or recommendations where I can get one cheap? how much should i pay?
jules
 

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Grumbler-chief in Residence
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Hi,

It doesn't seem to matter where you look the Vytec is £348.00, it does all you need plus a bit more.

Andrew
 

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That's Dude with an E
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Hi Jules.
l agree with Andy, go for the Vytec, mine cost about £250, 8 months ago from here
However l bought the transmitter as well (+£200 ish) and from the moment it arrived realised that it was unnecessary and that l would have been better off buying two vytecs, because l still need to buy another for when l go to Scapa with my daughter in Aug.
 

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Ive got to agree. Bought a Vytec a few months back and itll do everything you'll ever need.  Got mine for £280 from my LDS without the transmitter, and i agree with diving dude - not really necessary.
 

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Snap Happy
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Or,

buy the cheaper Vyper which does Nitrox but not switching.  Once you get to the stage that you're doing accelerated deco then put the Vyper into Gauge mode and run off tables.

Tim
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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I have the Cochran Commander Nitrox - does one or two Nitrox mixes (second for accelerated deco if required). Had mine for years and v/happy with it. Prices are in the range you mention.

If you want the ultimate (at the moment) get a VR3.
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi Julie

The only computer you will ever need would be a simple dive timer (£60) and a dive watch with adequate stopwatch. Anything else and you pay for convenience.

Mark and I both use a Vytec, primarily because it shows minutes and seconds when in gauge mode (The Vyper doesn't). This allows us to control ascent rates better. We use tables (or simple calculations based on memorised tables) It also allows us to download the dive profile to our PC's.

The vytec is ample to cover your needs whether you want to dive a computer or dive tables or just need a depth gauge and timer.

WL
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
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<font color='#000F22'>As above go for the Vitec. Its not quite all the computer you will ever need.  Only the hugley expensive VR3 can make that claim, but if you are going to use a computer to do your primary dive profile the Vitec will take you down to 55m no problem on a proper dive with a proper bottom time using Air or a leen 20/20 trimix fill. Obviously it will do bounce dives to any old depth and even deeper air dives but if like me 45+ is a Trimix dive you will find the Vitec can generate a good profile down to 55. Beyond that you are using more helium and the math goes out the window so its over to the VR3 or tables.

As an example I did a Trimix dive 23/20 with Andrew the other day with 10 at 50m and 20 at 46m. Andrew used tables and I used the Vitec. We did all our stops together and at the 6m stop I had 1 min more on my computer than Andrew had on his tables.

Unless you are going to get two Nitrox computers You will need to start carrying tables as back up.

I paid £250.00 for my Vitec but I have herd that Suunto have put a price fix in so that might not be possable any more. A trimix capable VR3 is £850+ and I have herd they are a bit tempremental as well.

And dont say you will never use the three gas mix option coz thats what I said and I was sooooo wrong. I hate deco give me that 02.


ATB

Mark Chase
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mark @ May 18 2003,09:23)]
The VR3 is a total waste of cash IMHO (just like all the other multi mix computers).
How do you figure multi mix computers are a waste of time. Unless you are diving a square profile (or series of) you are never going to get the accuracy of a computer.

Don't get me wrong, all divers should be able to run from tables BUT dive on the computer and fall back on the tables/pre prepared slates if the computer fails - IMO.

If you have a new wreck to dive - sea bed at 45 mtrs, deck at 30 mtrs - how do you prepare for this? Would you plan all times based on the whole dive at 45 mtrs or would you set up a dive plan that gives you 5 mins at 45 mtrs say then up to 30 mtrs?

It seems to me that the more flexible you want to be on a dive the more you have to overcompensate on everything happening at a deeper depth or longer time that really happened using tables manually. On that basis, on a deco dive, you will spend longer on the deco stops which is no bad thing (within limits) BUT why go to the effort of learning accelerated deco and having a second mix?

Lastly, you will never track the bodies theoretical gas loadings over repetative dives as consistently as a computer.

The VR3 is very expensive BUT I still want one.

Anyway, happy diving however you do it.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Unless you are diving a square profile (or series of) you are never going to get the accuracy of a computer.
So?

Why are you worried about exactly following a deco calculation that is by definition only an approximation?

All deco calculators just give you a "best guess" at how much deco you need to do. A computer using exact data to its hard and fast rules isn't any more reliable than you working on a good idea of your own dive profile plus good knowledge of tables - you're both going to arive at an approximate, reasonably good result. And nothing else.

Plus you can decide that due to workload & conditions, you need to be more/less conservative than you might like, etc etc.

I'm planning to get trained on proper deco proceedures later this year (as opposed to my current qualifications of 'use BSAC tables or your computer') after which I'll be selling my Nitrox computer with no intention of buying a new one..

"Decoweenie" is a good bit of software to have, but it's not a good thing to be - don't get fixated on how much extra data a computer can use to calculate your deco requirements, it really doesn't make any difference.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]you will never track the bodies theoretical gas loadings over repetative dives as consistently as a computer
See above. Why EXACTLY track a THEORETICAL tissue? It's your computer making a guess, not a statement of fact.
But in addition, DW is, I believe, getting the facility added to it of calculating your gas loading from your downloaded dive profile, therefore negating this argument completely: Stick your record of the dive onto DW, and it can calculate your exact tissue loading, just like a computer.
Of course, if you're DIR, you'd argue that after decompressing properly, you can ignore all prior dives because you're fully off-gassed..

As a simple parallel:

If someone has a stride that varies from 80 to 100 cm, depending on how fast he's walking, what the terrain is like, etc, and you want to know how far it is from his home to his town, a computer approach is to say "He walked exactly one thousand one hundred and eighty six steps, he was walking at exactly this speed, carrying exactly this weight, therefore his likely stride would be 84.3cm, therefore he walked exactly one kilometer, plus or minus 100m."
Whereas a human would say "He walked for about ten minutes. That means he's gone about a kilometer."

They're both approximate answers. The computer just put a lot of calculations and extra factors into working out a very precise, very exact, but equally approximate, answer.
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So?

Why are you worried about exactly following a deco calculation that is by definition only an approximation?
I am not worried - my point is why p*ss abt with tables during a dive if you have a computer.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] A computer using exact data to its hard and fast rules isn't any more reliable than you
Yes it is - it won't make a mistake if operating correctly.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ] working on a good idea of your own dive profile plus good knowledge of tables - you're both going to arive at an approximate, reasonably good result. And nothing else.
The algorithms the computers software is based on may be a best guess BUT you can rely on the results you are given to be exact and constant. Why add further approximations in by manually calculating things.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]"Decoweenie"
I use Proplanner.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Why EXACTLY track a THEORETICAL tissue? It's your computer making a guess, not a statement of fact.
The computer does not guess - it is making calculations based on a program. As it (possibly) is based on the same tables etc your decoplanner uses it will be more accurate than you could be.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Whereas a human would say "He walked for about ten minutes. That means he's gone about a kilometer."

They're both approximate answers. The computer just put a lot of calculations and extra factors into working out a very precise, very exact, but equally approximate, answer.
Given an exact repeat dive the computer will give you the same results time after time. Using a computer gives a constant set of results to work from where you can add in more safety or whatever you want to do with the information.

I am not having a go at people that use tables (I use them to plan my dives and set up depth/time/over run slates in case of computer failure).

OK, as an example (OK it is a poor one but...) - If there is an emergency at the end of the dive - you are 10 mtrs up the shot line and then drop down again to assist an unconscious diver that you have to bring back to the surface. Your computer will have taken this into account and all you need to do is look at it to find your amended deco times etc.

In my opinion EANx computers (more than one mix or not) are not a complete waste of money as stated earlier.

I'm allowed an opinion too - I asked just to make sure.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ May 18 2003,17:07)]if you are going to use a computer to do your primary dive profile the Vitec will take you down to 55m no problem on a proper dive with a proper bottom time using Air or a leen 20/20 trimix fill. Obviously it will do bounce dives to any old depth and even deeper air dives but if like me 45+ is a Trimix dive you will find the Vitec can generate a good profile down to 55. Beyond that you are using more helium and the math goes out the window so its over to the VR3 or tables.
At the moment I cant even imagine wanting to go so deep
 but then when I trained 18 months ago I couldnt imagine wanting to dive in the uk either... was definately planning to be a warm water diver until I became a scubaholic..
so just wanted to make sure that I didnt buy a computer that I would be unhappy with in another 2 years if and when I want to do more.

Shopping around now for best price for the Vytec, sent a few emails and waiting for replies. Think I wont bother with the remote air monitoring just yet and will just get the 'puter.

Jules  
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I am not worried - my point is why p*ss abt with tables during a dive if you have a computer.
The counterpoint is, why waste money on a gadget that gives no advantages other than encouraging you to shave your deco and not plan your dives properly?
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>I'm with you on that Dom, a computer is just wires and silicon and ones and noughts. I've got a nitrox puta but would dive air profiles on it anyway, if I'm using 80 or 100% to deco, for me that is more about increasing safety not cutting down on time.
I'm also tending to agree with the dir guys  (shock! horror!
  )  about the dive timer + tables, but not about downloading profiles to your PC from a Vytec (guys, there are better things to be doing you know...) .

My comp is apparently good to 66metres, but to go below that I'd probably go with timer-tables combo.

Chee-az
Steve

PS Finless - "Cochrane" & "Happy" in the same sentence? that's a first, I've heard (and seen) nowt but bad about them
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dominic @ May 20 2003,15:09)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I am not worried - my point is why p*ss abt with tables during a dive if you have a computer.
The counterpoint is, why waste money on a gadget that gives no advantages other than encouraging you to shave your deco and not plan your dives properly?
Sorry Dom - I am trying to figure out how to do multiple quotes and have to keep posting and going back to edit - you replied before I finished editing.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Sorry Dom - I am trying to figure out how to do multiple quotes and have to keep posting and going back to edit - you replied before I finished editing.
I did wonder

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I use Proplanner.
I wasn't advising you chnage your software - Decoweenie was so named in honour of the divers who would meticulously follow the exact deco profile, to the second.
The point is, when even the best model you've got is nothing more than a rough guess, there's no need to treat is an the exact truth.
Being a decoweenie doesn't gaurantee your safety.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Yes it is - it won't make a mistake if operating correctly.
But computers can and do go wrong, and not always obviously. Tables don't change their story halfway through a dive.
Computers can screw up. Humans can screw up. But if you know what you're doing, you're more likely to notice when a screwup hasbeen made. If you rely on a computer, you won't notice.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The algorithms the computers software is based on may be a best guess BUT you can rely on the results you are given to be exact and constant.
They're exact, they're consistent, but that doesn't matter because they still aren't ACCURATE.
You can rely on the results it gives to be consitent, but you can't rely on them to be correct. The extra detail a computer uses to plan a deco profile with is of no relevance because it's only using approximations.
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Given an exact repeat dive the computer will give you the same results time after time.

And therein lies its flaw - because no dive you do is ever identical to any other dive. The computer can't account for this, you can.
[b said:
[b said:
]This would not happen with tables.
Ehhh? Please reword this statement, tables do NOT change themselves between dives

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The computer does not guess - it is making calculations based on a program
Yes it DOES, because the algorithm it's USING is a guess. It's a good guess, but it remains a guess. That was the point of my example. Accurate observations based on vague calculations are no more accurate than vague observations based on vague calculations.
That's why even if you use a computer that runs the same algorithm as your tables, and the computer gives you different deco requirements to the tables, the computer's stated deco requirements are no better than the tables. Because the algorithm is an approximation, nothing more.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Julia C @ May 20 2003,15:02)]so just wanted to make sure that I didnt buy a computer that I would be unhappy with in another 2 years if and when I want to do more.

Shopping around now for best price for the Vytec, sent a few emails and waiting for replies. Think I wont bother with the remote air monitoring just yet and will just get the 'puter.

Jules  
With the way pooter technology improves at the moment 2 years is a long time.

I'd buy it if you like it.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Steve W @ May 20 2003,15:26)]PS Finless - "Cochrane" & "Happy" in the same sentence? that's a first, I've heard (and seen) nowt but bad about them
Yeah - so I've gathered. When doing the TDI Deco/Extended Nitrox course the instructor went through different pooters and anncounced that the Cochran, which I had just bought, was a pile of sh*t - oh well, can't win them all.

By todays standards one would be nice.

Oh, bye the way - the instructor was (and presumably still is) on your side of the pooter /tables debate.

ps : I like my Cochran lots.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dominic @ May 20 2003,15:40)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Sorry Dom - I am trying to figure out how to do multiple quotes and have to keep posting and going back to edit - you replied before I finished editing.
I did wonder
Dom,

I understand what you are saying (although your fellow tables enthusiasts might be a bit put out about the vague on vague interpretation) and I have no particular axe to grind APART from leaping to the defence of EANx computers (note to self - get a life).

Back in the 80s when I did my OW in Gozo a fellow student insisted on using tables/timer - every time I looked at him he had his head buried in amongst his slates. I don't think he saw any fish or anything. Maybe that coloured my opinions for life.

I always consult my tables before a dive so I have a plan in my head or on a slate depending on the type of dive.
My view is the technology is there use it - it makes life easier.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]and I have no particular axe to grind
Neither do I - I'm just incredibly bored at work right now

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]every time I looked at him he had his head buried in amongst his slates
I gather GUE teaches a way of working out your deco on the fly in your head during a dive.
Might be tempted to look into that..
 
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