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PADI Internet Specialty Diver
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We've been here before (many times) but its worth just posting this article from this Sunday's Observer:

Ocean acidification is latest manifestation of global warming | Environment | The Observer

The usual suspects will be out in force talking bollocks about volcanoes and quoting spurious facts about how low the CO2 from their 4 litre SUV is. The window of opportunity for warm water fish prodders is closing. Soon all that will be left is stealing tat from wrecks and boasting about it on the internet :(
 

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Devout Sceptic
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The trouble with this Global warming lark is that I get the impression that it's protagonists seem to think that it's the biggest threat to the planet. Actually Global Warming, even if it is a valid concern (and I don't think it is), is only a minor symptom of the human infestation of the planet.

Overpopulation, overpopulation and overpopulation, in that order are what we should be worrying about and acting to address.

No money in that tho' :(
 

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The trouble with this Global warming lark is that I get the impression that it's protagonists seem to think that it's the biggest threat to the planet. Actually Global Warming, even if it is a valid concern (and I don't think it is), is only a minor symptom of the human infestation of the planet.

Overpopulation, overpopulation and overpopulation, in that order are what we should be worrying about and acting to address.

No money in that tho' :(
Time for another world war then :( At least theres money in that :p
 

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It's always annoyed me that ocean acidifcation doesn't get more press, because the evidence for it is so much harder to pick apart than climate change (I guess that's why it doesn't get press!)

Actually, the headline is quite misleading - it's not a manifestation of global warming, it's an effect of increased CO2 levels which we know for certain are increasing. So even if a CO2 rise didn't cause warming, it would still acidify the oceans through basic chemistry (though acidifcation is exacerbated by higher temperatures). There is no scientific debate that it is happening, it's just a case of how bad the ecological effects will be (they won't be good...)
 

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Devout Sceptic
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is no scientific debate that it is happening, it's just a case of how bad the ecological effects will be (they won't be good...)
This brings us right back to my main point.

The rate at which we raking every edible morsel out of the oceans will mean that acidification never becomes an issue that outweighs what we are all ready doing to the oceans....

Were killing them stone dead already.
 

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This brings us right back to my main point.

The rate at which we raking every edible morsel out of the oceans will mean that acidification never becomes an issue that outweighs what we are all ready doing to the oceans....

Were killing them stone dead already.
I agree that overfishing may potentially be a bigger probelm in the short term, but I don't think that means we shouldn't do anything about other problems.

Also, the ocean ecosystem in terms of broad scale processes and atmospheric interactions could probably continue to function in some form without large fish, albeit not providing us with any food. But if for example, global phyto and zooplankton populations cannot calcify shells/exoskeletons or survive larval stages due to acidic oceans (one of the possible effects) then the consequences for the planet would be very very much worse.
 

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Devout Sceptic
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Our abuse of the oceans will only worsen as human population increases. If the oceans are empty of viable food for us then from the human point of view it matters not a jot what the plankton do. Unless of course we develop ways of harvesting plankton in sufficient quantities for that to become a sustainable food source. In which case there might be a problem.

Even if all anthropogenic CO2 emissions stopped with immediate effect we'd still screw the oceans.
With all the talk of peak oil it's possible that our CO2 emissions will reach a natural peak in our lifetimes anyway. The downturn will be rapid as nuclear power comes on line and we can charge our lovely new electric cars without burning gas and oil.

So with this in mind I'll continue to consider acidification of the oceans and Global Warming as manifestations of the same knee jerk environmentalist movement.
 

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It's always annoyed me that ocean acidifcation doesn't get more press, because the evidence for it is so much harder to pick apart than climate change (I guess that's why it doesn't get press!)

Actually, the headline is quite misleading - it's not a manifestation of global warming, it's an effect of increased CO2 levels which we know for certain are increasing. So even if a CO2 rise didn't cause warming, it would still acidify the oceans through basic chemistry (though acidifcation is exacerbated by higher temperatures). There is no scientific debate that it is happening, it's just a case of how bad the ecological effects will be (they won't be good...)
There's been an ecology on this planet for rather a long time. By 'bad' I suspect you mean from our point of view. It is in the nature of species to become extinct, else very likely we would not have evolved.

As for scientific debate, there is plenty. Some of it gets lost in politics and power brokering, some gets lost in placard wielding mobs. Some is good, some is bad. However we won't really be sure what was right except possibly in hindsight. I expect argument even then.

As for overpopulation, a world war may not make much difference. They didn't before. Now a decent pandemic could, the Spanish Flu of 1918 killed far more people than the war, although troop movements may have helped. Lowest estimate was 3% of the world population died. The Black Death may have killed 25%. To me, the most worrying thing about population growth is that it is happening in the third world and developing nations. For all the people who have died of starvation in Africa, the population has increased far faster than in Europe. Apparently the rate of growth is slowing, but it's still growing.

How will we feed ourselves?
 

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.

Climate change is a vast and complicated thing and the people that make the decisions try
to simplyfy it to proove there point.

I will make two points on the subject.

No1 if the water around the world warms up by as little as 2 to 3 degs C then it will expand.
The sea will raise by about 2 mtrs! That means all the low lying land around the world that is
threatend by flooding is also the most heavily populated and poorest areas in the world.
If those people can't live there they will move else where?

No2 If the water's around the world increase depth then we will have to dive deeper to getto the wrecks :)

all the best


taz
 

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Devout Sceptic
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No1 if the water around the world warms up by as little as 2 to 3 degs C then it will expand.
The sea will raise by about 2 mtrs! That means all the low lying land around the world that is
threatend by flooding is also the most heavily populated and poorest areas in the world.
If those people can't live there they will move else where?
That sounds like a population issue to me
No2 If the water's around the world increase depth then we will have to dive deeper to getto the wrecks :)
Does that mean we'll all have to have our dive computers recalibrated :confused:
 
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