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YDs Most Southerly Monkey
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31 people killed by Gunman.

BBC NEWS | World | Americas | Deadly shooting at US university

What a tragic waste of life.
You're not wrong there. There's a thread about it on Scuba Diving Board - Online Dive Community - Scuba Equipment, Travel and Clubs! , pretty much taken over by the "Right To Bear Arms" brigade.

One of the opinions being expressed quite loudly is that the Uni was at fault for not allowing students to carry concealed weapons, so people couldn't defend themselves. Also comparing the carriage of a concealed weapon with carrying a pony cylinder. It's pretty sad isn't it, that there's a substantial number of people there who view their fellow men (usually) as a potential imminent threat to their personal safety.

They just don't get it do they?
 

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Wannabe Lotto Jackpot Winner..!
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Its extreamly sad and heart breaking, especially for the family and friends of these poor sods, but Im sorry to say I doubt it will change anything as far as the USA's love affair with guns are concerned. They are so obcessed with their right to bare arms, that nothing is going to be allowed to change that, no matter what the costs.
 

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A VS Cash Cow
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when the right to bear arms is a foundation stone of their society then what do we expect. Its another tragic lose of life but won't change a thing.
 

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Street Cleansing Operative
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We have Hungerford and then Dunblane and the whole British sports shooting industry is turned on its head and cast out. Yet, how many times has this happened in the US now and nothing is done?

It's an integral part of the culture. I regularly deal with US Federal Air Marshals as they fly into the UK - taking custody of their weapons when they stay over night. I find their casual attitude to firearms and weapon handling somewhat alarming, but then they grow up with it. A few weeks ago we were discussing what would happen if we fired off a shot accidentally. They were amazed by the amount of trouble it would cause us as obviously every round we carry is counted and needs to be accounted for. We wouldn't be able to cover it up. They'd just keep quiet and go and buy some more bullets from down the street! They found it odd that ammunition was not readily available - even to law enforcement officers authorised to use firearms.

There is just such a vast gulf between our cultures on the arms issue. I don't understand what the pressing need of the 'right to bear arms' is, but it is certainly a huge political lobby over there - and so the sad conclusion is that atrocities like this will continue to happen on a regular basis.
 

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No social integrator
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when the right to bear arms is a foundation stone of their society then what do we expect. Its another tragic lose of life but won't change a thing.
Thing is it isn't - well not officially. The full 2nd Amendment quote goes like this:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
People only ever quote the second half of the sentence, the first half makes it clear that it's only acceptable in the context of maintaining a "well regulated militia" - i.e. the National Guard.
 

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We were talking about this at work this morning.

I wondered out loud when the UK would get the blame - after all, the right to bear arms bit in the US constitution comes from the British government not allowing the US settlers to bear arms.

Also, I grew up in South Africa, which is also a gun culture; and although I've seen a pistol held to the head of a street urchin accused of stealing a briefcase; I did rifle and pistol training; I am opposed to the carrying of weapons by the public - they can be taken off you and used against you unless you use it first - Mutually Assured Destruction. Also, if you've got it, you're more likely to use it. Alhough knife crime is on the up, you're more likely to recover from a beating or stabbing than a shooting.

Just my two penn'orth

Paul
 

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Se mi havus multe da mono mi acxetus novan biciklo
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It is far too early to draw any conclusions about this incident. The gunman has not yet even been positively identified, so any grievence he has with the university, faculty or students can not be identified and explored. One point which I'm sure the second amendment lobby will make forcefully is that firearms are usually prohibited on educational property, and that if that were not the case then a firearm owner may have stopped the gunman much sooner.

The tragedy is that someone obviously has a grievence and has only felt able to address it through violence. Like so many other shootings both in the USA and here.
 

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A VS Cash Cow
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People only ever quote the second half of the sentence, the first half makes it clear that it's only acceptable in the context of maintaining a "well regulated militia" - i.e. the National Guard.
fair do's but i think the arguement would centre around the position of the comma's but i'm no lawyer. Anyway try explaing that all to the American NRA.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I don't understand what the pressing need of the 'right to bear arms' is, but it is certainly a huge political lobby over there - and so the sad conclusion is that atrocities like this will continue to happen on a regular basis.
I suspect it is something to do with the American's self perpetuating need to 'protect' themselves readily backed up by commerce.

I saw Charlton Heston on the news last night recorded speaking at a National Rifle Association dinner. He had a rifle in his hands and was talking about the right to bear arms. He said something along the lines of: 'If they want my rifle - they can pry it from my cold dead hands.' - to rapturous applause.

I thought - what a tosser.
 

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Se mi havus multe da mono mi acxetus novan biciklo
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People only ever quote the second half of the sentence, the first half makes it clear that it's only acceptable in the context of maintaining a "well regulated militia" - i.e. the National Guard.
My understanding is that the 'well regulated militia' is intended to be a citizen militia, not arm of the state, which the National Guard is. It is to protect the rights of the citizen against the forces of the government, not so that householders can shoot burglars.
 

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Se mi havus multe da mono mi acxetus novan biciklo
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I saw Charlton Heston on the news last night recorded speaking at a National Rifle Association dinner. He had a rifle in his hands and was talking about the right to bear arms. He said something along the lines of: 'If they want my rifle - they can pry it from my cold dead hands.' - to rapturous applause.
Michael Moore uses that clip in 'Bowling for Columbine'. When he interviews Heston about it the justification given is that it was good enough for generations of dead white males, therefore it is good enough for him.
 

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aka Chimp 1 or Mavis...
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I suspect it is something to do with the American's self perpetuating need to 'protect' themselves readily backed up by commerce.

I saw Charlton Heston on the news last night recorded speaking at a National Rifle Association dinner. He had a rifle in his hands and was talking about the right to bear arms. He said something along the lines of: 'If they want my rifle - they can pry it from my cold dead hands.' - to rapturous applause.

I thought - what a tosser.
I watched Micheal Moore's Bowling for Columbine in which Micheal goes to Charlton's ranch for an interview and gets booted out. I am sure that speech was also on the BFC film. The film is very good and well worth hiring from Blockbusters (other video rental companies are available :) )

I agree Wilbo!
 

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We have Hungerford and then Dunblane and the whole British sports shooting industry is turned on its head and cast out. Yet, how many times has this happened in the US now and nothing is done?

And how much good did this do? Destroyed an Olympic sport in this country and many peoples livelihoods and still there are more shootings year on year.
 

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Get a grip
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I suppose that at least with a knife you are less able to kill so many at once.I see people often who if had access to guns would kill.When you concider the availability of guns,drugs,violent films,personel and social pathology and a basic cowboy nature then I am surprised that there are not more of these episodes. But then again it will all be the University Police,Precident and officials that shall be blamed , not the Guy himself in the media.
 

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My understanding is that the 'well regulated militia' is intended to be a citizen militia, not arm of the state, which the National Guard is. It is to protect the rights of the citizen against the forces of the government, not so that householders can shoot burglars.
Fair enough. Wikipedia has some interesting stuff regarding "militias", the US Constitution, and the National Guard. Worth a read.

Bowling for Columbine is an excellent film. I like the part where he hands out (real) handguns to everone passing through into the US from Canada.

I think it's a cultural thing - and more complicated than saying "guns kill, so lets ban guns". In Canada, guns are readily available, and yet the murder rate is far lower - see Bowling for Columbine again. Personally though, I think that possessing a gun makes it more likely to be shot with that gun. And guns may not be responsible for killing people, but they definitely make it a lot easier.

I also find it ironic that the NRA (supported by Bush) call for more gun ownership, and yet it's not ok for the whole world to have nuclear weapons. Ok, maybe that's just me.
 

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It's a horrible tragedy. More than thirty people have been denied their basic right to life by one persons questionable right to own a gun. The question that occurs to me is how a nation with a well developed education system can foster a large enough population of people who allow this insanity to continue?
 

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A VS Cash Cow
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I also find it ironic that the NRA (supported by Bush) call for more gun ownership, and yet it's not ok for the whole world to have nuclear weapons. Ok, maybe that's just me.
oooooooooh can we get onto the whole nuclear deterent arguement yet, who exactly are we detering?
 

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It's a horrible tragedy. More than thirty people have been denied their basic right to life by one persons questionable right to own a gun. The question that occurs to me is how a nation with a well developed education system can foster a large enough population of people who allow this insanity to continue?
Don't confuse the right to own a gun with it's misuse.
 

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aka Chimp 1 or Mavis...
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The question that occurs to me is how a nation with a well developed education system can foster a large enough population of people who allow this insanity to continue?
Depends on what you are teaching them....
 
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