[MATTBIN]

Ok lets take this one away from Diggers post.
Lets assume for the moment I have a few (60) dives under my belt, in the range of 25/30m both here and abroad, Sea and Inland, cold and warm, poor and good viz. So I think I'm experienced but not super cocky or blase about the dangers. I'd like to dive a BIT deeper, location UK but my life policy says no to any non-certified diving so I'm stuffed. I know I'll do a padi deep course, I already dive with a pony non deco so its a minor step up (down?) to go to 35m in the RIGHT conditions on the RIGHT site. Maybe Sacpa, maybe not, Scapa was just the first example I could think of.


I dont want to go twin tanks, I dont want to go into any deco diving either. I know this will restrict my bottom time but I can live with that at present.

Where's the problem? I'll pick this up when I get home as I'm in the office now and I'm off home soon.
Matt

 

[And]

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi Matt

Marks being a little facetious

(because that course is unavailable in the UK at the moment) but that course would indeed cover not only nitrox but trimix for recreational diving up to about 37 mtrs.

From your post I do not see the benefit of doing a course such as PADI Deep Air Diver. I'm a BSAC diver and as sports diver can dive to 35m and as Dive Leader can dive to 50m on air.

The depths probably aren't as much of an issue as the gas you are breathing. 30m NDL 20 mins, 35 NDL 15 mins, 40 NDL 10 mins. (Buhlmann 30/90 Tables)

If you were doing a wreck dive and using a reel to tie in from the shot by the time you've tied in its nearly time to ascend.

What I propose is that if you looked around at other courses such as perhaps an advanced nitrox then you may be able to do the dives you want to do under that C Card and gain a real benefit in your diving, thats all.

WL

 

[Dr Stevil]

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<font color='#0000FF'>Matt, if you did your BSAC Sports Diver that would qualify you to 35M, or the TDI Nitrox course would give you far more "depth allowance" than you actually need (45M)
Chee-az
Steve

PS duplicate info as WL posted while I was typing

 

[Tim Ingmire]

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Matt, looks like BSAC SportDiver would be the way to go.  I'm doing the  Dive Leader stuff now but I wouldn't really want to be doing 50m dives on air - not in the cold dark conditions in the UK anyway - I'm aiming to do Normoxic Trimix for that sometime next year.  You don't have to join a club to do it - you could goto a BSAC school and get the qual.  Although not sure if you can get there directly as a PADI cross-over from O/W or AOW and also don't know if this means you would have to join BSAC (and maintain it to keep your qual).

I must say I didn't view the Nitrox course as allowing me to progress my depth qualifications.  What do I mean by that?  Simply that as a BSAC SD I can dive to 35m but I wouldn't then use the Nitrox course as justification to goto 45m - i use it simply to use any combo of Nitrox to 35m.  Am I a slave to BSAC here? - I don't think so - just being sensible.


***edit
Actually thinking about it try SDI they have a deep diver course, I think Ben did this.  You can do this with Andy Dalesdiver - give him a call - he will be able to give you chapter and verse.

 

[Gavin Yates]

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<font color='#000F22'>Matt,

I'd do a few more dives and particularly sea dives before thinking about deeper sea dives. I certainly do not doubt your ability and I'm sure you're very sensible.

BSAC Sport Diver would be a good idea as it includes rescue skills - something that as an AOW you haven't covered formally.

Rescue skills need to include self-rescue as in UK conditions - and poor viz depth presents it's own challenges.

Looking forward to getting out on a sea dive with you at some point.

Gav

 

[JohnK]

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A few years ago when I did my AOW I had to go to 40m in Dotty to pass the course. My understanding was that as an AOW diver I could dive to 40m. As a DM (non working) I understood the max depth under PADI was 40m - have I got this wrong

Have since got the Nitrox card (to 40%) but cant remember this allowing me to go deeper.

Any practicing Instructers out there who can clarify ??

To add to the debate, I agree with the `if you want to go deeper - get some training` philosophy.

 

[Digger]

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<font color='#000080'>Sorry to hijack another thread, but I personally don't see the problem with deeper air diving. Most of the guys who are doing it know what they're doing, and know they're narked.

I don't get any noticable narcosis until about 45, and even then it's not suficient to be an issue. I can still do drills just fine, and have done sums and all that just to prove it. My times were barely different, and I was writing underwater.

I allow for narcosis, cold, and all the rest of it when I dive deep air, and I don't have a problem. I'm playing with trimix soon on dives that I would normally use air for, and then maybe I will be in a better position to judge, but right now I'm happy diving air.

I don't have a problem with PADI's 40m limit, but I do think (from what I understand will be n the course) that more emphasis is going to be needed on equipment considerations. My regular buddy's on the course, too, and he's a PADI AOW and BSAC Sports. Then again, he's already thought long and hard about his twins rig, and we talk specifics a lot anyway.

The course will essentially be a formality for me, I'm certain, but I want the ticket for teaching in the future. Besides, it's costing me about £20!!!

 

[Dr Stevil]

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<font color='#0000FF'>

Quote[/b] (kirky @ May 19 2003,20:29)]A few years ago when I did my AOW I had to go to 40m in Dotty to pass the course. My understanding was that as an AOW diver I could dive to 40m. As a DM (non working) I understood the max depth under PADI was 40m - have I got this wrong

AFAIUI , Padi AOW depth limit is 30m, but I'm BSAC so will stand to be corrected.

As for deep air diving, I'm more cautious than Digger, but I think that's an age/experience thing. A few years ago I would have gone to 40m on a 12L plus a pony, now I'd want twins and 100% O2 for deco

First time I did 30 m was on a 200bar 10L with an old Spiro reg, which now I wouldn't trust on a pony as a back-up, back when I was BSAC Novice 2 diver (or as we used to say "Nervous diver",  works better with the Northern accent)

I've found that the more I progress in diving (and generally grow older?) the more cautious I get. e.g. I wouldn't get another road racer and bomb down the A19 at 140mph, didn't have speed cameras when I were a lad  

Personally, I'm not much of a 'depth fiend' but "horses for courses" and all that
Chee-az
Steve

 

[Tim Ingmire]

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Digger,

if its only 20squids, you already know the limitations and gets you further along your path then bloody well go for it.  But you've already decided that anyway.



As for training, any course will just be lots of Nitrogen / Narcosis / Deco theory (which is nice) and then a dive or two to the max depth (or there abouts) for the course.  BSAC do the depth progression in stages but still (for Dive Leader) allows a dive to 40m one day and then 50m the next and then that's it you're ready to dive to 50m on air - (showing all proper dive planning also) - this bit ain't exactly rocket science.  

Whats important is lots of getting used to the depths and the feeling / impact of Narcosis which is where things can go really FUBAR if you're not expecting / used to it.  Even if doing a quick course (no names mentioned) then it's probably still worth re-doing this 'acclimisation'  and build-up the depth experience.

All of course IMVHO.

And Matt, under the conditions / proviso's / Limitations that you've stated, and returning to the original question in the thread, I don't see a problem but you're Insurance co might.  If you do progress your depth quals and your Insurance covers it then there's abs no probs.

 

[steve-k]

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done both the padi and bsac courses

aow padi was to 40m but they recomend 35m max (12 months ago at least)
bsac sports is to 35 and dive leader to 50, you can dive to 50 as a sports diver if you are in training for dive leader

your nitrox courses will give you 1.5barr ppo2 at 40m and a bit less nark on a 30%mix, this can only help, oh and a couple more mins bottom time

just a little thaught, going back about 4 years
   i had done the 40m boy a doty a couple of times, done the 35m box at stony i had about 40 dives under my belt, we went  on a hardboat out of angelsey (johns illusion) to do a 43m dive, got down there to find i had lost my buddy, it was pitch black, and with my tourch i had 1m viz, i shite myself (there was more because i got stuck but thats another story)

in my log book i wrote something like,
43m deep no budy total black, no viz, is fookin serious diving, and not to be taken lightley, lern from this or next time you might not come back

now im not trying to put you off, and some of my best diving i have done has ben in the 35-55 range, but the english sea can be a bitch, and needs respect, so try to build up your experiance

steve-k

 

[John Gulliver]

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Quote[/b] (Steve W @ May 19 2003,21:48)]As for deep air diving, I'm more cautious than Digger, but I think that's an age/experience thing. A few years ago I would have gone to 40m on a 12L plus a pony, now I'd want twins and 100% O2 for deco

That must be the explanation. I'm still too young (won't be 65 until next month

). I've done many dives to around 40 m (the odd one or two as deep as 45m) on air in a single plus pony. I don't get narked and I do believe I have enough redundant air for a worst-case scenario – 810 litres of it, untapped.

 

[Andy Phillips]

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Hi Matt

I know your PADI trained, just my bit but, if I were you the next step is a Rescue course which gets you up to BSAC Sports Diver, then a basic Nitrox, I would do TDI as it gets you off the PADI dollar ladder and onto the TDI go deeper one. From my experience in the UK, there are 15 to 35M dives and then it jumps to 50M plus with little in between (somebody is going to argue with me I just know it). Better to extend your bottom times and enjoy the 30M bracket for a while, this is what I did, it took a couple of years for the yen to go deeper get strong enough for me to act and push on to TRIMIX. I got a couple of scares which slowed me down, and if I was honest I needed them to remind me to think.

Depth is just semantics, it is the reason to be there that matters. Have a potter this weekend with us and you will see what I am whittering on about.

Andrew

 

[ian Price]

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Matt,

my tuppence worth, as Ive just been through this...

I completed TDI Nitrox, which actually says nitrox diving to your qualified diving limit. ie no depth prescribed it compliments existing certification. (have since done advanced nitrox but aint got me card from TDI yet but believe that says 40m)

My understanding is, having chatted with Andy Hayhurst and Ben, that PADI AOW covered you to a 30m max depth and that you needed to do a padi, BSAC or SDI deep or alternative course to get a 40m ticket.

Anyway I went up and did the SDI deep with Andy H it was £80 and 2 days, 4 dives and a large amount of Learning, up to and including reeling off etc at 44m in Wastwater and a large amount of drills and communication drills in coniston.

Anyway the SDI course was more detailed than the Padi deep I looked at (which was 30 - 35m in Stoney) I think it was one of the best courses Ive done. I can thoroughly recommend it... and you could probably tie it in with a Nitrox course.

My personal feeling is, that its good to get training and knowledge as you advance your skills and experience. Rather than blindly just pushing deeper on down, I dont intend to change to a twinset just yet but want the ability to dive to 40m if there are conditions or some thing there I really want to see, in the meantime Im happy diving around the 30m mark with increased knowledge and confidence.

Ian

 

[Digger]

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<font color='#000080'>I'm still a bit concerned by the building up to it idea.

Just so you realise hwo I got to here, as a PADI DM you cross over to BSAC DL, max depth qualification for each 30m and 50m respectively.

WIthout some serious attention to logbooks, it would be very easy for a DM to BS his way into a 50m air qualification.

It's possible to be a DM with only 1 dive below 18m. I could have done one dive to 20m, and then be qualified to 50m.

This isn't the way it should work, but it could. Most of my diving experience was taken at face value, with a quick flick through my logbooks.

As it was, I came to BSAC with a lot of deeper dives, and some down to 46m. Now, 46m in Cyprus is a very different kettle of fish to 50m in Swithiland Wood. I built up to my deep UK dives, and now I'm comfortable with 40m, and prepared for 50m. I get the usual extra preparation, like running everything through a couple of software programs, and having 2 sets of bailout tables, instead of the usual 1. Always have a spare.

I am just doing the course for the ticket, as mentioned before, but will be very interested to see what goes on with the course, and what the others on the course are going to be using, and how much of it is instructor influenced. I get the feeling it's ponys as standard issue, but I really don't know. Me and my buddy are going to be on twins I think.

I think there is a level of young and up for it about deep air. Certainly a lot of the guys in the club who have been there and done that have now decided it's not worth diving so deep unless there's really something to see. Maybe I'm just foolhardy, but I wouldn't describe myself as that, and on a dive I certainly don't behave like that. Maybe in the pub afterwards...

 

[And]

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

Digger..... challenge of deep air diving...... deep air is a wholly inappropriate gas..... You think deep air is challenging and inappropriate and yet you endorse it! And then you want to teach it. Exactly what ethics do you operate under when you do that?

Matt, there are plenty of dives around the UK in the 20-30 mtr region to keep you interested. Our BSAC club hasn't done a >30mtr dive for a number of years and we have dived around Bridlington, Farnes, St Abbs, Oban. You get decent dive times, and safer diving.

Nitrox is the way to go before you start going deep. Its not a deep gas but will allow you to extend dive times in the 30 mtr region and also speed up deco in the ill advised deep air stuff. You would be able to explore the Hood with more bottom time! I don't believe you can dive effectively below 30mtr on single cylinder and pony. Remember your gas supply should be able to supply you and your buddy to the surface, including any stops. You just don't have enough gas to be safe.

Diving safe also negates the life insurance issue. You want a deep air ticket so your family get money when you don't come back. A strange way of thinking

As SteveW suggested a TDI advanced Nitrox will make your diving safer, expand your choices and give you a solid foundation if ever you choose to go deeper.

HTH

WL

 

[RobK]

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Quote[/b] (John Gulliver @ May 19 2003,22:02)]That must be the explanation. I'm still too young (won't be 65 until next month

). I've done many dives to around 40 m (the odd one or two as deep as 45m) on air in a single plus pony. I don't get narked and I do believe I have enough redundant air for a worst-case scenario – 810 litres of it, untapped.

John, are you really saying that you _don't_ get narked?

 

[Lou]

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Sorry, just got to reply........

WL - I'm not sure I really understand where you are coming from or if you are addressing the situation that I think Matt is trying to explore.  Are you saying that there is a huge difference in going that extra metre or so over a nominal 30m limit?  And that to do this you now need trimix?  
We aren't necessarily talkig about square porfile dives with deco.  We are just talking about max depth on a dive.

If all us poor PADI souls were BSAC qualified we could slip down that metre or so to look at something and not worry.  If we did that on our AOW/RD whatever ticket and had an accident at any point on the dive our computer logs would give us away to any insurance company who might feel uninclined to pay up if they can poosibly avoid it.

The point isn't wanting to do "deep air" dives, it is a safety net so that if the worst happens we can be covered by our insurance.  Yes, if something, heavens forbid, ahppened to me whilst diving i wouldn't want my partner to lose our home.  that is NOT an odd way of thinking, it is common sense and it is appreciating that there is risk in everything we do and I am not immortal.

Although I normally find you to be quite balanced in your views I think you are being a tad hardline and blinkered in the set of circumstances you are considering.

Regards

Lou

 

[Hobby]

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Lou,I dont think WL was intending to be hardline(people are going to start thinking we're friends here!).I think what he's trying to say(and others) is that if Matt is considering doing deeper stuff the benefits of doing a course and utilising mixed gases are more worthwhile than pursuing a paper qualification that merely "allows" him to go a little deeper on air.
Now I dive on air...but Nitrox is a much more preferable gas even at depths not considered deep,as you can feel much less fatiqued post dive than on air(JohnG. I know you may not entirely agree with that,it does'nt affect me greatly either but for the sake of this OK?).In addition to this it's safer as depth in comparison to air,so why bother with so-called "deep air"if you don't have too?
As a point of interest,people(inc.insurers,divers etc) always get hung up on the 30m/35m thing as adopted by the agencies as though it's some sort of mythical depth,it is'nt.The reason the depth limit came about has bugger all to do with gas laws/properties,narcosis,diver function,etc.and is in fact quite simple and now(has been for a for a while)outdated.It's merely one of the "old standbys "that has little relevance in reality but remains a cornerstone of rec training.
Anyone know where it originated out of curiousity(not you Dom  

)???
HTH,Hobby.

 

[MATTBIN]

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Suppose I'd better chip in again as I sort of started it all.
I have no desire to dive deep (>30m) unless there is something really worthwhile seeing, I recognise on a single 12 (+ pony) without nitrox my NDL is going to be minimal, but then it is given the gas supply I will have anyway. Lou is quite correct, eventually I may be looking for a badge that 'allows' me to drop below the magical 30 so as to satisfy my insurance company should the need, God forbid, ever arise. However before that magical day I will build up significant dive experience in the UK so that the extra metre or two is not like falling of a precipice into the unknown. I really do feel that the extra depth on air or nitrox will not push me into significantly greater danger than I am currently facing. My son is 16 and will be my diving buddy generally so until he reaches physical maturity we shall not be diving very deep i.e. when we dive together we will aim for 25m max.
I expect we will move on to Nitrox soon to gain the benefits of the extra Oxygen rather than the extra dive time, currently our breathing rate drains the tanks before we get too close to the NDL anyway.
I fully appreciate the need for the correct equipment, training, experience and breathing gas for the dive concerned. Having said that I see little posssibility in doing deep dives as my own personal safety line would be crossed below 35m and I am not prepared to compromise that.
Maybe as suggested I should cross over to Bsac Sport and I'd be allowed to drop to 35m without any worries about insurance etc.

Regards
Matt
edit - to comment on Hobby's post, 35m is my personal maximum as I feel below that its twin tanks etc. I do not have the desire or finance for 2 sets of twins plus new BCD's etc. Additionally the Bsac incident reports show an alarming number of people getting into difficulty once this line has been crossed, for whatever reason.

 

[JohnR]

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Matt,

I'll chip in some thoughts on this. You said that the BSAC reports show an increased frequency of incidents below 35m.  I would guess (my opinion) that this is due to in part to being narked.  I was once asked (by a BSAC Nat Instructor) at what point I felt I began to be narked.  When I started to say at around 30-35m (this is when I notice it) he replied that narcosis begins as soon as you put your head under the water and that it's effects only increase with depth.

Having spoken to several others on this subject, many folk indicate that 30-35m is alos when they become aware of being narked.  Combinig this with stress of depth  / low viz etc could account for the increase in incidents.

This is just an opinion and I haven't looked at stats but it would seem to me to be a possibility.

This digresses a little from the theme of the thread so I'll just tag on that gradual building of experience is the way to go, and that however experience d you are, there is always more to learn.

Cheers,  John