[steve-k]

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<font color='#000080'>Just to mix things up a bit lets have a discussion about
<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>PADI v BSAC</span>


now i am both padi anb bsac trained as are a lot of you
what are the advantages/disadvantages of each organisation?

your opinios please

and lets not tutn this thread into a slangigng match

 

[Jay]

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To my mind there is no PADI v BSAC - PADI is a for profit training organisation, BSAC is a club orientated set up. It should be an instructor vs instructor argument!

 

[Chris Hall]

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I'm an instructor with both, to me diving is diving. It still costs you money either way, so it is up to the individual.

 

 

[BSH]

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<font color='#0000FF'>OK then Steve, I'll kick things off! Well I would have if it hadn't taken me so long to write it, I have now been beaten to it!

Firstly I also have a qualification with both agencies, BSAC Advanced and Padi DM (although I only did this as someone else wanted to do it.

If someone asked me which agency to train with I would ask them where they wanted to dive, if they want to dive both in the UK and overseas then I would advise the BSAC route, if they only want to dive on holiday then I would say PADI.

If you train with a BSAC club which we all know takes considerably longer than 5 days, but I believe you get on the whole good training from like minded people who do it because they enjoy it not because they are being paid.  When I started my training began in the January and my first openwater dive apart from Novice 1 and 2 which was sheltered water in Stoney was to be Easter in Angelsey unfortunately like so many Easters it was blown out.  So no sea for me

very disappointed, the club decided to dive Vivian and I was informed I couldn't dive.  Since then I have continued my training with BSAC, I like the club environment and will continue to dive with like minded people.

The BSAC training system allows the diver to progress at a rate which is suitable for most people there is no pressure to advance your qualification I know lots of excellent Sports Divers, who do not want to become Dive Leaders.  Whereas PADI trained divers seem to need advance and continue their qualification far quicker than is necessary.  Week 1 OW, Week 2 AOW and so on, there was a lady on Divernet the other week who was asking for buddies as she wanted to go to the Red Sea and do the DM course which requires 50 dives, I ask what is the rush?  It took me a couple of years to complete Sports diver, mainly due to injury and operations but I don't think this did me any harm.

However, if you only want to dive overseas why pay for membership at a club or as with BSAC you have to have BSAC membership each year to retain your qualification, unlike PADI where your qualification is for life, no re-newing this I only found out a couple of months ago when I was considering re-newing my PADI membership, I was then told I didn't have to.  So good for you PADI members.

BSAC members say PADI stands for Put Another Dollar In, as everything has to be paid for, but I have continued my training through to Advanced Diver which involved a great number of Skill Developement Courses at a price, however I did enjoy doing them and they gave me a broader experience, since then done IANTD Advanced Nitrox, certainly the one course whoever runs it is well worth doing and then IANTD Gas Blender.

I have probably gone off on a tangent and this is only my opinion so if you want to dive in UK dive BSAC otherwise PADI is a more widely recognised qualification as everyone knows what level your at, some places overseas assume BSAC Advanced is the same as PADI Advanced and I assure you it isn't.  

Hope I haven't upset anyone    

 

[JohnK]

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We all pays our money and we all makes our choice. Both have good bits and bad bits, both cost whichever way you look at it.

Me - I went the PADI way (even for UK diving which is the majority of diving I do) because I wanted to rely on MY experience and not have others control it for me. In saying that my PADI instructor was not in it for the money and it took about 2 months plus twice as many dives as required to get my OW - he passed me when he AND I were happy.

Have to say I dont like the 4 day sausage machine programmes that are in use today - I have seen OW students passed but certainly not profficient

 

[gaz]

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hmmm, it's like most things i guess you pays your money and takes your choice.

I've been trained by padi and bsac and the training is much of a muchness, the laws of physics don't change across agencies, all of the instructors i've learnt with have been very very good, maybe i'm just lucky. Of course, if you look carefully, you can find examples of very bad practise from both agencies.

One thing i have noticed recently with divers that is very nice is that the padi v bsac sniping seems to be dying down a bit. i spent a week wreck diving in egypt a while ago on a boat that was 50:50 padi and bsac and from what i can remember agencies were harldy mentioned.

The more important question isn't which agency but whether to learn in the UK or abroad.

The other issue is what you plan to do once you've become an ocean diver or an open water diver. I did padi OW and then joined bsac as i assumed it would be a good way to start diving in the UK. unfortunately, it didn't really work out that way, for the year i was a member i managed 3 dives with the club, two of which were sport diver training dives and about 50 odd with non-club buddies and padi training.

the thing that really didn't let bsac work for me was that i've got no real interest in maintaining or managing boats. i'm far happier getting on a rib or hard boat, going diving for the day and then getting off and going to the pub. the launching and stuff isn't my scene.

for a lot of people, having very cheap diving is a real boon, i think the club charged about £7 a dive of their ribs. The local skippers charge £17 and i'm quite happy to pay a tenner to not pick up boats.

 

[Mark Chase]

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<font color='#000F22'>Unfortunatly I havent done any BSAC training it has all bin PADI and TDI so my views are all bassed on what I have read, but for the hell of it:

PADI is a pay your money demand your course on this day at this time. Course litriture is excelent and the coricolum for OW is adiquate.

My vew looking back is that OW went into skill areas that were not necessary but didnt focus enough on essential skills like gas planing and SAC. But it got me in to blue water quickley and eficiently and therefore I didnt see a problem at the time. The course was also freindly and non scarey so when my Wife did it she didnt run a mile after day one.

So off we went all qualified divers and did some diving

Having soon discovered that we were heavily restricted on where we could dive without a guide and to what depth, we then went to AOW training.

The deep and wreck part of the course were quite good but I felt the navigation section was a wast of time as my present navigation skills will atest.

Having got my AOW card I must say I didnt feel very advanced at all.

BUT it was still all blue water stuff so I was basicly happy.

Then came UK diving

Within a few months of venturing into UK diving and a dry suit for the first time I became totaly dissalusioned with the PADI training. There was no way I was trained to dive to AOW depths in UK conditions and dispite the 90 odd blue water dives I had under my belt it was back to the begining in all areas.

I then started colecting books and mags to lurn stuff and hit the net for the first time.

At this point I started lurning a little about the BSAC system of training. Apart from complaints about excesive time factors, I felt it was much more geared to progresive diver developmet than PADI and I thaught it sounded rather good.
The one grey area was the point at which a diver who wanted to progress in terms of skills and depth, had to take on the teaching of other divers. I felt that a lot of people would shy away from that bit as teaching is a skill in it's self.
But on ballance IMHO it would apear a better / safer system than the PADY fast track.

So in sumery if I were to start again and I intended to dive in the UK I would go BSAC bassed pureley on the slower development of skills that they appear to promote.  

ATB

Mark CHASE

 

[BSH]

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Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ June 05 2003,08:52)]The one grey area was the point at which a diver who wanted to progress in terms of skills and depth, had to take on the teaching of other divers. I felt that a lot of people would shy away from that bit as teaching is a skill in it's self.

<font color='#0000FF'>Mark, this isn't actually true, know one is expected to become an instructor in order to progress their own diving skills.  Club Instructor is a completely separate course, it has since changed and there are different parts to instructing some people are happy to teach in the classroom so that do that part only, some poeple want to do open water so they can.  

What I have found happens is that when you join a BSAC club the training you receive is free and therefore for a lot of members becomming an instructor is a way of putting something back into the club system.

FB

 

[Mark Chase]

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<font color='#000F22'>Fair enough as I say I dont have hands on knoladge.

I beleived to get into ligitamatly doing 40 -50m dives you neded to do a DL / DM or above type grade which involved looking after less experianced divers.

Sorry for the error

Mark Chase

 

[722]

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Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ June 05 2003,09:19)]Fair enough as I say I dont have hands on knoladge.

I beleived to get into ligitamatly doing 40 -50m dives you neded to do a DL / DM or above type grade which involved looking after less experianced divers.

Sorry for the error

Mark Chase

BSAC DL is a means that you should be able to plan and lead your dive. However this does not means you HAVE to take less experienced divers. Once you have lead a few dives with divers of equal/greater experience, then you may find you have the confidence to lead less experinced dives.

Yet, strangley, a pair or BSAC CD/OD's can dive as a buddy pair if approved by the DO. So one of them must be leading the dive...

Adrian

 

[Dr Stevil]

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<font color='#0000FF'>One positive thing about doing the DL thing is that by taking responsibility for less experienced divers, you are forced to confront your own beliefs about your knowledge and abilities. I found that some things I thought I knew well, were actually a bit rusty when faced with some newbie doing the "emporer's new clothes" routine.
Consequently by getting involved in instructing, a lot of important stuff becomes second-nature by virtue of constant attention it gets, whereas for some divers it is not well retained post-exams .

However, there are some divers who want their DL qual purely for the 50m limit it gives you, I'm sure these divers can contribute to their club in other ways but in my old club (Uni branch) there was ALWAYS a shortage of DLs as there were so many trainees

BTW lots of DLs I know also do their DM and vice versa,
so AFAIAC the P v B debate is not worth getting into for the reasons others have described above

Aren't we an egalitarian bunch

Chee-az
steve

 

[louigi]

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<font color='#FF0000'>One of my regular buddies at the bsac club to which I belong, is a PADI transvestite oops sory crossover with similar training, suposidly to my self, however. Though I have only been diving for ten months, I can see marked differences in the lack of instruction he has retained or not been shown properly.  Though he under took his training abroad in a week. Mine took 6 months or so. Having said that, I also dive with outher PADI divers whose skills apear much the same as mine. though these have been trained in this country.

Perhapse the reason for the differences could be the holliday factor and trying to cram too much into a restricted time slot.

Louigi.    

 

[Dr Stevil]

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<font color='#0000FF'>Agreed, which is why I have always opposed running the BSAC Ocean Diver (nee Club Diver) and Sport Diver theory courses as an intensive one or two day thing
Chee-az
Steve

 

[Doug Parker]

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Quote[/b] ]Quote (Mark Chase @ June 05 2003,08:52)
The one grey area was the point at which a diver who wanted to progress in terms of skills and depth, had to take on the teaching of other divers. I felt that a lot of people would shy away from that bit as teaching is a skill in it's self.

Mark, this isn't actually true, know one is expected to become an instructor in order to progress their own diving skills.  Club Instructor is a completely separate course, it has since changed and there are different parts to instructing some people are happy to teach in the classroom so that do that part only, some poeple want to do open water so they can.  

 I totally agree with Mark on this one. This is the reason for me not progressing past S/D within BSAC. I can't even do the pretend bit with a club diver for the S/D course, i only wanted the qualification so i could do some different dives without a 35m depth restriction.  So now i don't dive with BSAC at all but still do deep dives.  I started with PADI and changed across, i wish i hadn't bothered now.