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Just not enough dive time.
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On the Tech page, of Divernet, it has been suggested that following a hit on a moderate dive a diver would be well advised to get a PFO chewck. The diver concerned had buddies onthe same dive who did not get a hit, whilst I understand this is perfectly possible, as we are all individuals with different physical attributes etc I do not see the reason to rush off to hospital for a PFO check if this was a first hit. The hit was diagnosed as minor type 1.
Are there statistics available to show that DCI causes death even if treated quickly?
Matt
 

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Fully agree that there's no point in tearing off for a PFO check. It's very rare that a fully researched diving history of the patient cannot (partially at least) explain the DCI, even after multiple hits. (Quite regularly multiple hits are caused by ignoring the advice given following the previous incident - but hey, it's your carcase !).
Stats, they exist in patients notes - but are so rare that you couldn't undertake a statistical trend exercise. If you make the surface, and a suitable pot, and your problem is DCI, (hmmm, 3 ifs) your chance of survival is higher than your chance of survival as a pedestrian in a city.
 

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The impression i got after my bend was, because my dive profile was ok and i'm reasonably healthy it must be a PFO that caused me to bend. I've got to harass my GP to get me referred to Wilmhurst now.
 

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Just not enough dive time.
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Doug
sorry you took a hit, but I'd be interested to know the outcome of any PFO check, it seems at the moment that PFO's are being blamed for any hits where the profile was 'perfect'. It would be good to know if this is the case in most incidents or just a current theory.
Matt
 

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About 1 1/2 years ago I was diagnosed with type I and II DCI.
I would consider myself a safe diver including relevant stops and following "correct" diving practices.

I would say that for all my diving life I have suffered from either headaches, muscle stretches post diving... But in no case did i ever really have a post dive symptom which I would not find another reason for...for example I always get headaches, I will admit I never drink my total 2ltrs of water daily on some occasions, which i usually considered my reason whether I was diving for not.
I used to be renound for carrying too much kit (twin sets etc) and I have a number of back, hip, and knee injuries from sports as a child.

None the less, for every symptom that I had i never considered it to be DCS as I have always had these type of symptoms since I started diving and never really knew any better I guess... (I suppose it could be considered as denial)

I am a nitrox diver and would always use as high a mix as I could relative to the depth. I will also admit a large majority of my diving was in a depth of 6-9mtrs.

So none the less I managed over a weekend of diving one day doing two dives in a day both to a depth of 9mtrs, second day two dives to a depth of 20mtrs. Reasonably cool water conditions (6degrees) and all relevant safety stops included and well within tables, again on sensible eanx mixes.

Post dive, I had my usual headache, so up toped up my fluids, felt fine...
I had a lovely walk in twin set and all to the top car park at a dive site in Leicester...
But none the less this was a usual weekends diving, nothing out of the ordinary, I would consider myself fit and healthy doing 5-8 dives a week, with a love for diving.

Anyway back to the bend, I had my normal headache and a little sore knee from the walk (note: I had an op on this knee as a kid and always have a prob with it) both otherwise felt fine...
Day after still a headache but otherwise feeling fine, knee felt muscularly sore. Had a shower that evening, got a rash (heat rash???), phone a particular insurance agency that suggest I sleep on it.
Day three went to chamber, diagnosed with type I and II DCS, still felt okay headache little worse then normal and knee still feeling muscularly sore....

So my options, It was the long walk back to the vehicle post diving? Not enough water during the day? Cold water conditions? fitness??? PFO??? well it could have been all of them...

None the less chatting to the Dr, he told me I was the worst case of DCS he had seen. All my symptoms were neurological and therefore had been dismissed. Every headache was likely to be another bend.. Every muscle stain was likely to be due to be damaged tissue which is a haven for bubbles.
So even though I could walk talk and act normally the continuous damaged that diving had caused was a problem...

So I had considered that I had had a PFO, since I was a premature baby and also a very ill baby.

The waiting lists were long and I needed to know, so I went private for a contrast echo which confirmed I had a sizable PFO, then about 4 months later I had an appointment to see an NHS surgeon, then in feb this year I had the op...

In the mean time I had sinus surgery, to realign a deviated nasal septum, just in case that could also be a cause for my post diving headaches.

So now I have a sealed PFO and all in all I shall see in good time if I am well post diving again.....

I chose not to dive post the bend due to the severity of my symptoms and also due to some residual neurological effects....

well if there is any info anyone needs feel free to mail me... hopefully I could shed a little more light on anything.....

rjv

NOTE: if there is anything I have learnt from this experience, that is even if you are not feeling well, a headache, small muscle pain, anything post diving phone your nearest recompression chamber and speak directly to the Dr, he can assess whether he/she feels you should need to visit them to see if you possibly have DCS…
What ever the case ensure you speak to a Dr, be wary of peoples advice, but still understand and acknowledge it….remember it is the dr at the end of the day who will decide if you are gonna end up in the pot….
 

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Hi sorry for the long last e-mail, but if you need more info on getting a PFO check and NHS avalibilty or Private checks and surgury, just e-mail me and i'll see what I can do...

[email protected]
 

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Hi Beck,

No need to apologise - glad to have your input. Welcome aboard to YD as well.

So where do you live, dive and what type of diving do you do?

Cheers and dive safe,
 

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Hi Bren, thanx for introducing me to the board, seems quite active with chat and little criticism like some of the other boards....some people are too quite to judge...

Anyway I am a scuba instructor who loves diving I am also a Tech Nitrox diver who was supposed to be doing her cave course and trimix couse before she got bent...
Love wrecks fish photogrpahy and video... prefer the UK to anywhere else i have been diving

Not been to yorkshire but as a keen caver (pretty new to it still) I may have to experience some diving in you area some time...
I had been diving for about 6-7 years pre my bend and can not wait to get back and divign again... about 28 days before my HSE medical and trying to get back to my optimum fitness level... but we shall have to wait and see what the season brings ah.....

Litrally I had the op two days ago so i am still feeling groggy from the anestetic but my trusty computer will keep me occupied for the time being...

l8rs
becks
 

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okay maybe i should read my posts before posting so sorry for the spelling mistakes....I was supposed to say some people are too quick to judge not quite....durrr dumb blonde...

sorry guys
 

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Just to make matters worse, after getting past the medical on Friday, i dived at Firestone on Saturday and got a slight skin bend in my left shoulder and because i didn't go back to DDRC, i got called by the doctor and had to go back for a severe telling off. I know it's my own fault and i should've gone up there but it seemed trivial and i didn't even feel it( the wife spotted it when i went to bed) plus it had gone by the morning.
 

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Just not enough dive time.
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Hey Beck, dont worry about the spilling mistooks, have you scene Murk Choses stuf. He must be an Engineer with spelling like that.
Hope you make full recovery, and you Goug.
Matt
 

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I feel i've made a full recovery from the major bend i had in November, but i'll admit to being slightly worried about the skin bend i got last week. I'm putting it down to being stressed and under weighted on my first dive in three months plus i went straight down to my new depth limit. Maybe i should have taken it a bit slower and built up to it over the next year.
 

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<font color='#000080'>Up to 30% of divers have a PFO and, as yet, it has not been statistically proven that PFOs are a cause of unexpected DCI.
However, it is generally believed that the risks of DCI in those with a PFO are at least half as much again as those without.

I have not yet had by imaging echocardiography but have little doubt a PFO was the cause on my sudden loss of consciousness during the ascent from a pretty relaxed shore dive.

After hundreds of event-free dives I am convinced my loss of consciousness was due to a cerebral gas bubble(s) which expanded on the ascent to cause a transient rise in intra-cranial pressure - thus loss of consciousness. My doctors did not attribute my injuries to DCI at all and if I had died "drowning" would havebeen the pathological cause of death. (How often has this occured, I wonder.
)

Forgetting my own case for a moment, as my own PFO is not yet proven, Beck's and Doug's stories confirm you can dive for many years without problem but a combination of circumstances can lead to a pretty catastrophic cerbral bend (type II DCI) which will hit without warning.

My advice to any keen diver, particularly those who dive solo is to play safe and have a test.

The costs of a private TOE is a pretty cheap life insuance!
 

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I put my bend down to me diving too deep on air (subconciously knowing too much, ie- Wah Wah' ,Narked at 30 metres, incident pit) and think if i'd been a bit more organised before hand and got a mix i wouldn't have suffered, and i mean SUFFERED, the hit. I'm still waiting for DR. Wilmhurst to get back back to me about a PFO check.
 

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<font color='#000080'>
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Paul Thomas @ April 19 2003,22:34)]Up to 30% of divers have a PFO and, as yet, it has not been statistically proven that PFOs are a cause of unexpected DCI.. . . My doctors did not attribute my injuries to DCI at all and if I had died "drowning" would havebeen the pathological cause of death. (How often has this occured, I wonder.
)
Sorry Doug,

Misread you post. I have little doubt that in time PFOs will be recognised as the single major factor in unexpected type II DCI.

The point I was making, perhaps lost in the detail, is that in many seriously injured diver casulaties/deaths there is little effort into establishing the original cause. DCI (type II) was not even considered in my case.

If I am right "shallow water blackout" and statements to the coroner such as "I simply lost contact with my buddy", could well be due to that common nasty little defect.

Early days yet, but I am working on it!
 

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It wouldn't surprise me if i have got a PFO but until i've been checked i'm staying confident that i haven't. I'm diving within my new limits that were imposed by DDRC and don't intend to do anything too deep until next year. I pushed it Last November and came unstuck, all thanks to the pot for being so quick to start fixing me. I have no lasting effects after a week of treatment which is amazing considering i could hardly walk by the time i got up there, it didn't stop my mouth though.
 

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It was explained to me how a PFO would affect me as that was the only thing they could put the bend down to after seeing the printout from my computer. Everyone who has seen it (Medical/armchair experts) can't see anything wrong with the profile. It was just my turn, that's all.
 

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The Artist formerly known as 'Kirky'
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Hi folks - this is an interesting topic and thread. My only problem is knowing what PFO stands for !!! Can someone help out please.... I suppose I should know this but if I dont then maybe others dont.

Apologies for the basic request !!
 

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Patent Foramen Ovale, or a hole in the heart to us numpties. My wife thinks it's impossible for me to have a hole in something i 've proved time and again that i haven't got.
 
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