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· Dive without politics
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2,103 Posts
Agreed. The tuition is minimal. But making it a 'speciality' affords the training agencies an opportunity to extract more cash from divers. And, from memory, there is the opportunity to go much deeper than 32m on Jackson Reef. Did their 'tuition' cover enough to give them an appreciation of what they were doing and why it could be dangerous?



Definetly not saying it's right, but if it's agreed in advance above water, then the instructor is effectively the depth gauge.



From what I read, I wouldn't agree with this. The Red Sea seems to have some very iffy operators. As an example, four divers lost last year on Elphinstone in an episode that really was criminal; open water divers in strong currents with little or no surface support. Lots of poorly trained divers, quite a few Russians it has to be said, diving deep sites seem to be falling off the perch over there. The more expensive operators seem to be more conscious of safety. The cheaper ones seem to cut a lot of corners.
The tuition may not be a lot, but it should be tought in a proper way. All training should be carried out as per PADI standards, thats the point. You dont seem to understand who gets the money if you think the agencys see it as a way to extract money, your words.

Its not acceptable to allow divers to dive without some way of measuring depth, that would seem to me a first princaple.

It would not suprise me if the Red Sea had a better record than stoney when you consider just how dives per day each venue does.
 

· Nigel Hewitt
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7,123 Posts
Firstly I was a bit sharp because everybody else was going "Oh this is awful" while in reality it was just a bit warm water dive boat.
1. Ok simple but 15-20 mins on a rolling boat is the perfect place to teach it?
15-20 minutes is rubbish. Even on a rolling boat.

10 minutes tops.
Including making them work out MOD and EAD.

The rest is just filler to try and make it look like a course you ought to pay money for.
I can see I'm going to have to write Nigel's 10 minute Nitrox course and put it on the web....
...Hang in....
...I did.
 

· Dive without politics
Joined
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2,103 Posts
Firstly I was a bit sharp because everybody else was going "Oh this is awful" while in reality it was just a bit warm water dive boat.
15-20 minutes is rubbish. Even on a rolling boat.

10 minutes tops.
Including making them work out MOD and EAD.

The rest is just filler to try and make it look like a course you ought to pay money for.
I can see I'm going to have to write Nigel's 10 minute Nitrox course and put it on the web....
...Hang in....
...I did.
Do you mean it takes ten minutes to read it or understand it?
 

· From sunny Sleaford
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219 Posts
I did my nitrox course whilst in Sharm the beginning of March. I had the book about 3 months before and had done all the knowledge reviews . I did the exam one evening after getting back to the dive centre. Then the following day I was taken throught the knoewldge reviews and test making sure I understood the questions I had got wrong in the test. i was also asked about the reviews if there was any questions and I had one because I got the right answer bit I wasnt sure why so the instructor went through it with me and explain it until I was happy with my answer and why it was right. Only then was i allowed to actually dive with nitrox and be shown how to analyse it. It made me feel very conifdent that i had learnt what i needed to know :D
 

· Dive without politics
Joined
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2,103 Posts
I did my nitrox course whilst in Sharm the beginning of March. I had the book about 3 months before and had done all the knowledge reviews . I did the exam one evening after getting back to the dive centre. Then the following day I was taken throught the knoewldge reviews and test making sure I understood the questions I had got wrong in the test. i was also asked about the reviews if there was any questions and I had one because I got the right answer bit I wasnt sure why so the instructor went through it with me and explain it until I was happy with my answer and why it was right. Only then was i allowed to actually dive with nitrox and be shown how to analyse it. It made me feel very conifdent that i had learnt what i needed to know :D

That of course should have been the way it was for the other divers, glad you had a professional instructor, where did you do your course.
 

· Myth Buster
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510 Posts
It looks like the instructor was trying to do either of the below:

'Dive Today
Following the Dive Today philosophy, you can conduct Enriched Air Training
Dive 1 prior to beginning knowledge development. To apply the Dive Today
option with the PADI Enriched Air Diver course, divers must:
1. Be a certified PADI Open Water Diver or have a qualifying
certification from another training organization; (exceptions
allowed for divers participating in this program during Open
Water Dive Four of the PADI Open Water Diver course.)
2. Successfully complete Practical Application 1 prior to
Enriched Air Training Dive 1. (This is easily conducted as part of
the predive briefing).
3. Listen to your Dive Today briefing as outlined for Enriched
Air Training Dive 1 (Section Two), with divers demonstrating
mastery and understanding.
The Dive Today briefing applies to all student divers who
have not completed Knowledge Development Section 1.
4. Dive with individual enriched air dive computers (you must
personally watch divers to verify that they set their computers
to the correct blend), or you must directly supervise divers
during the dive.
The dive may, of course, be credited for those who continue on in the course.

Discover Enriched Air Nitrox
To earn the Discover Enriched Air Nitrox card, divers must:
1. Be a certified PADI Open Water Diver or have a qualifying
certification from another training organization. (Note: Discover
Enriched Air Nitrox may be conducted concurrently
with the PADI Open Water Diver course. In this case, the
Open Water Diver certification requirements must be met
before submitting the Discover Enriched Air Nitrox PIC Envelope
to PADI.)
2. Successfully complete Knowledge Development 1 (Enriched
air dive planning, care for equipment, hazard management, use and
application of enriched air.) The PADI Enriched Air Diver Manual
is required.
3. Successfully complete Practical Application 1 (using an oxygen
analyzer to determine oxygen content in an enriched air blend, verification
of cylinder content, use of fill log).
Enriched Air Diver
7
An enriched air dive may accompany the program, but is not required.
Successful completion of Discover Enriched Air Nitrox allows the
diver to dive on 32 percent oxygen within the no-stop limits of the air RDP or
an air-based dive computer, to a maximum of 30 metres/100 feet (depending
on previous training and experience) under the indirect supervision of a PADI
professional (Divemaster, Assistant Instructor or Instructor) who is enriched-air
certified.
Indicate “Discover Enriched Air Nitrox” on the PIC envelope - using
either the paper envelope or PIC online method. Divers will receive a card that
clearly indicates the restrictions regarding oxygen content, depth and supervision.
Interested Discover Enriched Air Nitrox divers may continue to complete
the remaining segments of the Enriched Air Diver course to earn the PADI
Enriched Air Diver certification. Please remember that the PADI Enriched Air
Diver video must be viewed in its entirety prior to completing the Enriched Air
Diver certification.'

Didn't really do either...
 

· Registered
Joined
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4,431 Posts
The "Discover" is a nitrox try dive not a certification.
The "Dive Today" crap you still have to own the materials, view the DVD and complete the final exam before you're certified so if that wasn't done there are standards breaks.
There are also minimum equipment requirements for course dives and that includes a depth gauge and timing device OR a computer so again a breach there if they had neither.

You could do a PADI QA report although from what i gather not a lot will happen about it.

Im ASSUMING its padi here on the boat as you havent said?
 

· Member
Joined
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434 Posts
The tuition may not be a lot, but it should be tought in a proper way. All training should be carried out as per PADI standards, thats the point. You dont seem to understand who gets the money if you think the agencys see it as a way to extract money, your words.
The money is extracted; who gets it isn't the issue. What it's for is.

Its not acceptable to allow divers to dive without some way of measuring depth, that would seem to me a first princaple.
Like I said, I don't agree with it as a practice, but I've seen it before as a teaching method by CMAS instructors in the Carribean.

I'd certainly refuse to enter the water without a method of gauging depth. It's a decision made by individual divers.

It would not suprise me if the Red Sea had a better record than stoney when you consider just how dives per day each venue does.
This is a probably a fair point.
 

· Myth Buster
Joined
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510 Posts
Seeing how we like to see how far we split a hair, these are the equipment requirements (from the PADI Enriched Air Specialty Instructor Outline):

'Equipment
The following equipment is required (boldfaced) or recommended (non boldfaced)
for both students and instructors in the PADI Enriched Air Diver course:
Standard scuba equipment appropriate for local environment,
including but not limited to mask, fins, snorkel, exposure
suit, regulator, alternate air source, SPG, BCD, depth gauge
and timer
, (a dive computer meets this requirement), cutting tool
(unless prohibited by law), slate with pencil and weight system
Dedicated EANx cylinder with appropriate markings as
required by local community standard and/or regulations

Oxygen analyzer (at least one available for student use during practical
applications and before training dives)
• Enriched air nitrox dive computer (Note: Enriched air dive computers
are required for some options in conducting the Enriched Air
Diver course. See Course Structure and Sequence in Section One and
Enriched Air Training Dive 1 in Section Two for more details.)
• Emergency oxygen system'

There is also a 30m maximum depth limit or max ppO2 of 1.4 or max 18m if they are PADI Open Water Divers, whichever is shallowest...
 
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· Registered
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42 Posts
Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Just to confirm a couple of points
yes it was PADI instructor
I did have a brief conversation with the divers, and casually asked if they had done any paperwork/reviews yet, of which they said no.
At the end of the day as the boat was coming into port, the instructor told them to come by the shop tomorrow and fill in the pic card.
He would not be there, as he was back out on the boat , so I assume that was the end of the "course"
So after this, no matter how others feel that nitrox is incredibly simple, IMO I don't think these guys got either the right training or their moneys worth
This looks to me like a way to get divers to part with €140, to enable the school to then charge an extra €5 per nitrox fill
Again just my opinion
 

· Dive without politics
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2,103 Posts
If they went in and sorted out the PIC, yes.
No, it sounds like a breach of standarde from start to end. Its a disgrace that people pay good money for this standard of instruction, if it was as described.
 
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