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Ginger, Irish, sometimes stroppy
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"The inquest heard that all three divers had been diving on Nitrox, an oxygen-enriched gas, but that none of the three held a qualification in the use of this gas. Jemma Stevens had passed her entry level diving qualification, but was not qualified to dive to 30m. Additionally, it was her first dive of the season."

This dive led to the death of the diver mentioned. The SAA has now suspended the dive club responsible.

The three points mentioned in this abstract amaze me individually, let alone in combination, i.e. non certed divers using EANx, Entry level diver at 30M, 30M first dive of the season.

Has anyone else seen this type of thing happen in the UK or is this just a bizarrely extreme case ?

Conor
 

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Tragic, in both senses of the word.

Given the recent Dotty thread and the fact that a couple of folk seems to be getting upset with views expressed, I was wondering how "correct " it is discussing fatalities quite so soon after the event
(assuming this SAA incident is recent)

Regardless, I don't hesitate to say that I would not under any circumstances support any one of those three extremely stupid behaviours/factors on any dive/trip I was mashalling/planning.

Sure, everyone is, apparently, in the majority of views expressed here, entitled to take whatever risks and break whatever "rules" they please, but you'll have to excuse my lack of sympathy for reckless behaviour which leads to needless loss of life.

However, I do have plenty of sympathy for the relatives/family who have to deal with the aftermath, it's an terrible thing burying a loved one, as I know from experience.
 

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Just not enough dive time.
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Agree with Steve re: if we should 'argue' the case and a tragic loss, again.
However, lets just be realistic here Nitrox isnt devil gas and so long as someone had ensured the correct mix for the dive was used the fact the diver wasnt qualified to use it has no bearing on the fatality, the opposite I would say as its a safer gas anyway.
The 'facts' seem a little light too, was she being supervised correctly, were they building her up to a higher qualification, what were the conditions and what caused her death, was it diving related? It would appear that once again the inquest/press are jumping all over our sport claiming it to be seriously dangerous, which it can be but need not be.

Sincere sympathy to the family and friends for yet another loss.

Matt
 

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The info on DiverNet mentions that the Chairman was not asked to sanction the dive. Such asking may well have prevented the incident, which happened back in April.

From other information I have picked up this incident over the past few months, it would seem that the inquest and news reporting are pretty spot on.

Some of the SAA club, including the Chairman, have left and formed their own BSAC branch. Judging form the Lyme Bay divers web site, there are other issues afoot. It's not often you see a Do banned for stealing.

Lyme Bay Divers

Adrian
 

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Just not enough dive time.
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I thought it was the DO's job to sanction a dive not the Chair unless of course they are one and the same, am I wrong?

Matt
 

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I have to agree with Matt - Nitrox qualifications are very over-rated. You can tell somebody everything they need to know about Nitrox in about an hour, so long as they're reasonably good at math.

The entry-level diver at 30m on first dive of the season part, tho, is indeed Darwin in action..
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (MATTBIN @ Dec. 22 2003,13:27)]I thought it was the DO's job to sanction a dive not the Chair unless of course they are one and the same, am I wrong?

Matt
I don't know how the SAA operates in this regard. It seems reasonable for the role of sanctioner to be delegated to another suitable person in the absence of the DO.

Adrian
 

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Creature of the night
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (MATTBIN @ Dec. 22 2003,13:27)]I thought it was the DO's job to sanction a dive not the Chair unless of course they are one and the same, am I wrong?

Matt
<font color='#000080'>Hi Matt,
you are spot on, in our club it is the reponsibility of the DO [me]to ok dives, also the DO cannot hold another committee position other than training officer.

Adrian, myself I would be very wary about passing that responsibility to anyone else because if an incident occured I'm fairly sure that the DO would still be held ultimately responsible.

Safe diving,
Steve.
 

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Ginger, Irish, sometimes stroppy
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dominic @ Dec. 22 2003,13:28)]
Apologies if this is too recent, I got the impression that it was a while ago, but I could be wrong. Also I have to admit I haven't followed the Dotty thread that Steve mentioned, so once again sorry if this thread was inappropriate.

Having said that, the purpose of the inquest is not only to find out what happened but also to see if it can be prevented again, and so discussion should be a good thing.

I am sure all divers have nothing but the sincerest symptathies for family, relatives and friends.

Although I am not Nitrox certed and I am aware it is not a 'devil gas' the fact that none of the people were qualified in its use makes you wonder if they were aware of the mix they were using and its effects?
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Dominic @ Dec. 22 2003,13:28)]I have to agree with Matt - Nitrox qualifications are very over-rated. You can tell somebody everything they need to know about Nitrox in about an hour, so long as they're reasonably good at math.
I reckon nitrox use can be condensed into
Don't dive longer than 45mins.
Don't go deeper than the MOD on the tank and check the mix.
Either set your computer to the nitrox mix on tank or dive as air.
Using these guidelines you can give any diver a tank of nitrox and they will be safe. More theory and practice makes you more competent and gives more understanding but at a basic level it takes three sentences and showing them how to work the analyser!
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Steve S @ Dec. 22 2003,13:59)]Adrian, myself I would be very wary about passing that responsibility to anyone else because if an incident occured I'm fairly sure that the DO would still be held ultimately responsible.
Steve

Yes, the DO would still be responsible. So you would delegate responsibly. Rule no 1, 'cover yourself'. If you delegate to an inexperienced person, with no guidelines, then you may be acting badly. If you delegate to a person who has previously been DO, then such a person would be hard pressed to say that they did not understand the responsibilities of the role.

Delegation is also part of training. How does someone learn and really understand the responsibilities, without having them at least temporarily. Or do you 'just' elect an AD/OWI who happens to be willing to 'give it a go'

Adrian
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Adrian Kelland @ Dec. 22 2003,14:24)]Or do you 'just' elect an AD/OWI who happens to be willing to 'give it a go'

Adrian
<font color='#000080'>Absolutely, have you never heard that one volunteer is better than 10 pressed DO's


I think that we have gotten our wires crossed I was not talking about supervised delegation, I meant delegation without supervision.

And feel free to correct me if I am wrong but wouldn't the DO still be liable in the event of an incident irrespective of the delegated persons experience.

Safe diving,
Steve.
 

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Steve

I think it would come down to how the delegation had been arranged. Tort of Negligance and all that. After all, a Dive Marshall is effectively a delegated role.

How do you sort diving when you are away on holiday? Dives sites/divers change while you are away. Who approves the dive? Or are they left either not diving, or unapproved, as the divers in the SAA case?

Adrian
 

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DUE CEO, Booking agent, Coffee maker & Dogsbody...
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Guys

I think you will find it is this incident from the list i put up a while ago:-

3 divers were diving to 30m. 1 gave a low air signal at 20m and started sharing with the Dive Leader. The 3rd diver assended to 20m and twice indicated a problem. The sharing pair assended to the surface but the 3rd diver never surfaced. Total dive time 12 min.

I think even looking at the very basic facts it looks nothing other than a total CF.

As for DO's they are responsible even when not there as they allocate the Dive Marshal and approve his plan. I have a Deputy who runs our expeds and fills the role if i'm not on it.

Of course it only applies if they are doing a branch dive. If it was a private dive its their ball game.

Agree totally on the Nitrox, i tried it for a few years before spending money on the course.

Dive Safe and Progress,

Paul
 

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Creature of the night
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Adrian Kelland @ Dec. 22 2003,20:33)]Steve

How do you sort diving when you are away on holiday? Dives sites/divers change while you are away. Who approves the dive? Or are they left either not diving, or unapproved, as the divers in the SAA case?

Adrian
<font color='#000080'>Thankfully I am able to attend most of our "club dives" so to date this has not arisen.

If it were to happen I would hope that the dive plan agreed would be changed in such a way that would leave basic safe diving practices in place.

"Not diving" in light off some recent incidents may be a reasonable option in certain circumstances however unpallatable it may seem at the time.

Safe diving,
Steve.
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
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Its one of those WTF accidents. How the hell can a diver be low on air after 10mins?
The poor sod leading the group has to take a diver up on an Octo from 20m and then ANOTHER diver signals a probelm. Was there a problem with the kit, the fills ?? who knows we dont have enough facts. One thing is for sure after 12mins at 30m on Nitrox you could ascend streight to the surface and we have no idea why the lady didnt do just that.

I would be facinated to now the cause of the OOA or the failure of the lady to ascend but as is often the case with these reports the detail is some what lacking.

ATB

Mark Chase
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Adrian Kelland @ Dec. 22 2003,13:23)]The info on DiverNet mentions that the Chairman was not asked to sanction the dive. Such asking may well have prevented the incident, which happened back in April.

From other information I have picked up this incident over the past few months, it would seem that the inquest and news reporting are pretty spot on.

Some of the SAA club, including the Chairman, have left and formed their own BSAC branch. Judging form the Lyme Bay divers web site, there are other issues afoot. It's not often you see a Do banned for stealing.

Lyme Bay Divers

Adrian
There's more to the whole Lyme Bay divers thing than first appears. There were some walkouts by the DO and a few others way before the incedent took place (Which I believe happened at the beginning of this year) Accusations have been flying around for some time and the SAA has been in "discussion" with the club for a while. AIUI the DO who left is the one accused of stealing which he strenuously denies.

See

Sublyme Divers


All in all a bit of a mess and one of the problems with club organisations when personalities get involved.

Please note I have nothing to do with either club, just trying to show both sides of the story.

Cheers,
Rob.
 

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Thanks Rob

I knew there were other issues afoot, I just could not find the 'other side to the story'. Trouble with all this is that the truth is probably bits of all the stories, just which bits?

The sad thing about all this is that Jemma's death may well have been prevented if the club had been operating well at the top. It is possible that Jemma's father will be suing he club, although perhaps it is certain people he should be suing. Only have news reports on all this. The whole business certainly stinks.

Adrian
 

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There hasn't been enough information in the report.  A very sad incident, reading about it, I'm not sure what caused it.  As pointed out O2 is not necessarily a pertinent factor.  I don't really know what a diving season is, unless you mean Sunday.   I know there are plenty of club members who are once in a blue moon divers and the only club dives they attend in a year will probably be the deepest or some of the most challenging. We might not approve but its a normal state of affairs.  As for experince, many of us were doing 30 and 40m dives before we had done 50 dives.  I wondered why a person would be OOA shortly after arriving at the wreck.  Does anyone know the site and have any idea?
 

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Budgy

I have not yet been on the Pomeranian, but for those who know the M2 and Sidon, it is only a couple of miles away at a min of 27m on a flat coarse sand/clay sea bed. Not much in the way of reefs in Lyme Bay. Vis varies as always. I understand the dive took place quite early in the morning 8-8.30ish, but I don't know when slack was. Either the diver went in with low pressure, or they worked like crazy against a current. Or of course the guy had some kind of reg failure, none of these has been mentioned though.

As to diving season, many clubs are training over winter/spring with only a hard core sea diving all year round. The dive was in early April, and AIUI, Jemma's first dive of the year.

Adrian
 
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