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<font color='#0000FF'>I found this post from Deco Stop Forum, it's very long but apart from making a record straight, you can learn a lot from these guy. as if these things happen to them who are the elite, can happen to us and this should make you think about your, mine training and diving level.

The attached is a reply from Lamar English and Bill Gavin regarding a previously posted diatribe from George Irvine.

This is in two parts as it is too long for one post. Part II to follow.



INTRODUCTION FROM GAVIN
For those of you that might remember, my name is Bill Gavin and I used to be a pretty decent cave diver. I no longer cave dive and never will again on the level that I was at in the mid 90's when I stopped. However, the reasons for that decision are quite different than what some have suggested. Briefly, I had stopped enjoying it. The joy of diving had been replaced with the tedium of politics, issues of site access, the irritation of e-mail name calling and criticism, etc. At the end of 1995, I decided to take a break from it and do something different. It had ceased to be worth the considerable time, effort and risk.

I stopped playing the e-mail name calling game about 10 years ago. I thought it was stupid then and that opinion hasn’t changed. I’ve never seen so much publicly displayed dirty laundry mixed with vast quantities of immaturity as what occurs on some of these diving lists. From what I have observed recently, not much has changed. Grown people acting like spoiled children. I’ve no more desire to participate now than I did 10 years ago. Unfortunately, some things have been posted about me, which are grossly inaccurate and as presented are seriously defamatory, not only to me, but also to my friends and dive partners. Revisiting these tragedies isn’t pleasant for me but, sometimes it’s just necessary to do unpleasant things. Let me say in advance that I don’t care how anyone responds to this. You can rant at me, disagree with me or call me whatever foul names you can think of. I don’t care. I'm doing this to set the record straight. People who recognize the truth will get it and recognize the lies that have been told. People who are brainwashed into the “DIR” doctrine may not. I’m not going to change their minds, they’re not going to change mine so let’s not waste each other’s time. To put it bluntly, your opinion doesn’t matter to me. I’m not diving anymore and if I WAS still diving I’d still be doing it MY way based on Hogarthian principles and personal experience. The only reason I even bother doing this is to present the facts to those that are genuinely interested.

INTRODUCTION FROM ENGLISH
My name is Lamar English. Like my diving partners Bill Gavin and Bill Main, I have done a good bit of cave diving. One thing that I have not done is get involved with the various cave diving web sites. That changed as of 9-16-03 when Bill Main called to tell me of a post he felt he had to respond to. That intrigued me so I signed up on The Deco Stop and started reading… I enjoyed a good bit of it and felt there was a genuine interest in the history of cave diving as written by those who were there. I decided to write a post myself and started the process. I got side tracked when I happened to do a Google search on Sherwood Schile. The third hit got my attention, it was: January 26, 2003 From: George Irvine to DIRQuest List; “…Horror story. Bill Gavin, Lamar English and Sherwood Schile did a dive up past the Bitter End in Leon Sinks….”

We both HAVE to respond to this, so I am turning this over to Bill Gavin but I will interject.

Here is the offending post –Our reply follows. For those of you that have already read this and want to skip ahead, go to “REPLY FOLLOWS”.
Date: January 26, 2003
From: George Irvine
To: DirQuest List ([email protected])

Subject: For you cave divers - OOG
Guys, just to clear some things up that got brought to my attention. I hear some people have been taught to "donate stage bottles" in an OOG situation. This turned up in the "clip off deco regs to the harness" nonsense.
I am going to get with Andrew and David Rhea and make sure there are not people teaching this or giving the wrong impression, but for now, we obviously need to go over OOG situations the DIR way - there is only one right way to do this.
Let me start with a horror story and preface it by saying this: when you do have an emergency of any kind, I will tell you up front that your own personal set of brass balls is the only thing that will allow a positive outcome: YOU MUST STEP IN, TAKE CONTROL, ACT DECISIVELY, AND SO DO WITHOUT ANY SHOW OF FEAR, NO MATTER WHAT. You can not back off.
You then have to think about what is going to be the fastest, most effective way to get out of the cave. This is part of why we use our stage gas up - we want to have all our gas in one place if we have to run for the door, not be dragging ten bottles with 700 psi each in them. We only take useable bottles and we never leave a working scooter.
You have to link up and share gas from the main supply. Obviously, barring a sudden, total manifold failure, the divers should be either on stages or done with them. Handing off a stage is bullshit. It guarantees repeated OOG situations, is too stressful, slows you down, and is a cop out and does not solve the problem. If there is stage gas left, and it is in sufficient quantity to where bringing the bottle will add some befit and do so without using more gas due to being slowed down than by not having it, then bring it and have the donor breathe it, but do not pass off a bottle and leave a guy with only that.
The right way is for the donor to breath the stages to save the main supply.
Now, let me tell you the horror story. Bill Gavin, Lamar English and Sherwood Schile did a dive up past the Bitter End in Leon Sinks. JJ and I set it up, as I was supposed to dive, but I thumbed it when I realized that Sherwood was not on the same page with us and was not in the right frame of mind to do this dive.
They did it anyway, telling me that I was wrong, and what happened, to make a long story short, is that Sherwood drowned on the way out. He was on a triple stage, and he left all three bottles on, did not stow the regs, but rather had them clipped off to his right chest d ring or hanging there. There is a nasty restriction (very long, tight and twisty with projections everywhere) that they went through.
Sherwood got hung up and at the same time ran out of gas, or thought he did on his bottle. He then started grasping for regs (now has five around his neck), and can't get one going. He signals Gavin, who passes the hose. The whole place silts out totally and the flow pushes the silt over Gavin - he can't see Sherwood. Lamar is behind and blocked by Sherwood and can only see his feet. At the same time, his scooter triggers and sticks on.
Gavin takes off a stage and hands it to Sherwood (who now has four). He sees his long hose come back. Lamar ends up pulling Sherwood back, leaves his scooter, grabs Gavin, and Gavin tows him out. They get to the deco bottles and Gavin turns around and sees it is Lamar, not Sherwood that he is towing.
Gavin went back the next day to get Sherwood and he told me this: he told me that he just wanted to make sure that he did not back off from Sherwood and that he had made a clean pass and done the right thing and given him a full bottle. Now keep in mind that this is number three for Gavin - Bill McFadden ran out of gas on him and nearly drowned him (Gavin not on the dive but went back into the cave when McFadden;'s buddy had left him), Parker Turner ran out of gas on him at Indian and died, and then this situation. By the way, that is when I took over the WKPP.
They did several things wrong besides taking Sherwood on this dive and not using enough scooters. They let Sherwood do it his way, they balked when the shit hit the fan, they did not positively control and solve the situation and put it to bed, they left working scooters and went out on one (could have then killed those two if the batteries died , which is amazing that they did not after the distance they traveled on one scooter), and they failed to recognize any of their mistakes. What they both did right was quit cave diving shortly thereafter. Not that these two guys did not posses more skill than I have ever seen, but you just can't lose the game that badly and keep playing.
The way to win the game is to do it right.
I do not let things go by like this and then wonder what the problem is, and I sure as hell do no go on repeating it. Learn from this, and if anyone is teaching you anything different, know that it is not DIR and it is not right.
REPLY FOLLOWS:

REPLY FROM GAVIN
I wrote detailed accounts of the accidents involving Bill McFaden and Parker Turner. Both have been published. I will discuss those accidents briefly at the end of this post for those that have not read the detailed versions. I never wrote an account of the dive on which Sherwood died because it took us quite a while to figure out what had happened and a good deal of it is still conjecture. It certainly wasn’t going to reflect well on Sherwood and I didn’t see the point of doing it. It seemed wrong to speculate about someone’s state of mind when he could not defend himself. This apparently, has left Lamar and me open to attack. Therefore, this post will have to serve as that account.

GEORGE SAID
...we obviously need to go over OOG situations the DIR way - there is only one right way to do this.

REPLY FROM GAVIN
Any time anyone says, “there is only one right way to do this” your BS meter should be pegged. It’s a presumptive statement, made by a person that fears being proven wrong. Well, I disagree with that statement. Different situations call for different responses and failure to adapt will kill you as easily as any other failure. Scootering through a low tight area is easier when you aren't hanging off a long hose connected to someone else. Going through a tight restriction can be easier and safer if you are pushing a stage bottle ahead of you and not buddy breathing off someone else’s long hose. Using a stage bottle to navigate to larger cave is a viable option that has to be considered based on where you are. In Sherwood's situation, larger cave and clearer water were less than 200 feet away.

GEORGE SAID
You have to link up and share gas from the main supply. Obviously, barring a sudden, total manifold failure, the divers should be either on stages or done with them. Handing off a stage is bullshit. It guarantees repeated OOG situations, is too stressful, slows you down, and is a cop out and does not solve the problem.

REPLY FROM GAVIN
Again, I disagree. The sooner that all stage bottles are used the sooner they can be discarded allowing the team to move in the most efficient, streamlined manner. You don’t want to leave any gas behind, but every bottle adds drag. Assuming everyone is in control this is your best bet. Use the bottles and leave them behind. You can clean them up another day. Fundamentally, it is the decision of the gas donor as to how he goes about it. If you are lucky then you are in a situation that has been anticipated, discussed and practiced. If not, you must make decisions on the spot. Of course in the situation that resulted in Sherwood Schile’s death, there was no out of gas situation. Sherwood never ran out of gas, so why was it mentioned? I think it’s about someone feeding their ego.

GEORGE SAID
If there is stage gas left, and it is in sufficient quantity to where bringing the bottle will add some befit and do so without using more gas due to being slowed down than by not having it, then bring it and have the donor breathe it, but do not pass off a bottle and leave a guy with only that.

REPLY FROM GAVIN
Simply outrageous and potentially actionable. Sherwood was not handed a bottle and abandoned. If George is accusing Lamar and me of that then it is clearly defamation. It is also a lie. We will cover in detail what happened at the time of Sherwood’s death. I have to wait for George to give you the wrong version first. As to the use of stage bottles, George’s example seems to assume there is only one with usable gas. What if there are several? Does one diver carry them all while having his doubles emptied by the out of gas diver? Then what happens? Is it okay to hand off a stage bottle to a diver once he has used all of your primary gas? Is that the new “rule”? This is an issue of gas management where only the people on the dive can decide what is best. I believe it is best to preserve the gas on your back for as long as possible, but every situation requires evaluation and adaptation.

GEORGE SAID
...but I thumbed it when I realized that Sherwood was not on the same page with us and was not in the right frame of mind to do this dive.

REPLY FROM GAVIN
This is almost amusing. Let me explain. The last push into this area before the dive on which Sherwood died had been Sherwood, Lamar and myself. When we surfaced from that dive we were greeted by Leon County Sheriff’s deputies that wanted our assistance with a body recovery. We explained that we could not dive again that day because of the extreme exposure dive we had just finished. The three of us participated in this recovery the next day. I mention this because it bears on the state of Sherwood’s mind two weeks later. There were several other divers that helped, but I don’t recall all of them. I apologize for this – everyone worked very hard and I am not trying to showcase us. I’m just reciting events to the best of my memory.

At this point in time we had evolved into three-man dive teams for big pushes. The reasons are simple. In a two-man team you only have one person to assist a diver who has a problem. On the other hand, I’ve seen four-man teams split into two, two-man teams time after time. Three-man teams stay together and you have two guys to help if one experiences problems. George wanted badly to do this dive, but that would have required one of the three of us to drop out or for me to tell someone that George was taking their place. I refused to do this. Sherwood had earned the right to be on the dive and expressed no desire not to be. The amusing part is that George pitched a total tantrum over not being on it and I told him “tough”. For him to claim he “thumbed it” is revisionist history. He was never invited and he knows it.

GEORGE SAID
Sherwood got hung up and at the same time ran out of gas, or thought he did on his bottle. He then started grasping for regs (now has five around his neck), and can't get one going. He signals Gavin, who passes the hose. The whole place silts out totally and the flow pushes the silt over Gavin - he can't see Sherwood. Lamar is behind and blocked by Sherwood and can only see his feet. At the same time, his scooter triggers and sticks on.

REPLY FROM GAVIN
It is amazing how someone that wasn't there knows so much detail about what happened. Actually, it's not amazing because half of it's wrong. Here is what did happen. Sherwood had previously become entangled in the line while attempting to don a stage bottle. This was in large tunnel where we had left our first stage bottle and also had safety bottles in place. The plan on this and several previous dives was to recover your stage bottle if all was going well, but there were full bottles there for any emergency. Sherwood did not pick up a full bottle, nor did he need to. Anyway, Lamar untangled Sherwood, clipped his bottle on for him and we started heading out. I watched Lamar doing this and I can tell you that he definitely “stepped in, took control and acted decisively” as George puts it. We went a hundred feet through a bedding plane area that's low, but you can still scooter through it. We had Sherwood sandwiched between Lamar and me. Then we came to a six-foot vertical restriction. George said it was “nasty”. How "nasty" is it? Big enough for one diver to pass through wearing 104's and three stage bottles. You just can't scooter through it. Somehow, behind me, Sherwood managed to break the line and suck it into his prop. Keep in mind we were only 1000 feet from our deco bottles and in an area that Sherwood had visited dozens of times before. This was like our back yard at that time. Yet, he managed to get tangled in the line once then break it a hundred feet later silting out Lamar in the process. Not knowing this, I passed through the restriction and moved out of the way. Suddenly I was being frantically flashed from behind. I went back and Sherwood was half way out of the restriction signaling out of gas. This surprised the hell out of me because I had tons of gas left. The dive had gone perfectly (other than Sherwood’s brief entanglement) and I could not imagine why he would be out of gas. (It turned out, he wasn’t. Sherwood had over 1000 psi in his 104's and gas in two out of three stage bottles.) I handed him my long hose (which he grabbed with both hands) and I started trying to figure out the best thing to do next. Visibility was getting worse and worse on my side of Sherwood and he couldn't move forward with me in his way. We were facing each other at this point and I couldn't easily turn around. I unclipped a stage bottle (which was about half full) turned on the valve, unclipped the regulator and handed it to him. I couldn't see him clearly by then, but after I handed him the bottle I saw my long hose drop toward me from out of the silt cloud. I figured he had the bottle and I needed to move out of his way. At this point I was hoping that Lamar had a better view of his problem than I did. I moved back about 10 feet and waited. While I was waiting I hooked up my scooter tow harness, figuring we were not going to want to waste any time. Meanwhile Lamar was in the process of untangling Sherwood for the second time. I guess this qualifies as “leaving a guy” according to George. I’ve shared gas with Sherwood from my doubles, given him one of my stage bottles and Lamar is untangling him for the second time in two minutes while I’m waiting ten feet away as visibility approaches zero. Not much later, I saw the glow off a light coming toward me. I turned and picked up my scooter, intending to swim to clear water. I figured Sherwood would follow me and we would start motoring once we got to larger tunnel. Then, I felt someone grab me and signal urgently to go. I couldn’t swim like this so I hit the trigger and we took off, following a line that I could barely see. I assumed this was Sherwood and that Lamar was right behind us. My thought at that time was to get Sherwood to our decompression bottles, which were less than ten minutes away. I had switched to my long hose, expecting to have to hand it off during the exit. We got to clear water and things seemed to be going well. I was pleasantly surprised that Sherwood seemed to have gotten himself under control. As we got closer to our deco bottles I began to relax. Only when we got to the deco bottles did I realize Sherwood was missing.

In retrospect I made two assumptions that proved wrong. I assumed the light coming toward me was Sherwood and when grabbed from behind I assumed he needed a tow out. However, after agonizing analysis, I cannot see how this made any difference since he had already passed out for unknown reasons. We had absolutely no chance of dragging an unconscious diver to safety from that distance. Lamar knew that Sherwood was dead, but rather than stop and discuss it (a useless waste of time) he signaled me to get the hell out. Had I been correct in my assumptions then my actions would have given us the best chance to save his life.

What could we have done differently? Well, if I had clairvoyantly known that Sherwood would have a problem at the restriction we could have gone the long way out. This would have been in larger tunnel, but would have added another 1000 feet to the exit. It was never the plan and it didn’t occur to me to change routes. If I had made that choice and Sherwood had still drowned, would I be faulted for that decision? Second-guessing these events after the fact, by someone that wasn’t there, is a pathetic act.

Two more things need to be addressed. First, no one’s scooter stuck on. I don’t know where that piece of misinformation came from. Second, all of Sherwood’s regulators were tested at the Naval Experimental Diving Unit after the fatality. I worked right across the street from NEDU and talked to the person in charge of the test. All regulators were functioning properly. It wasn’t that Sherwood couldn’t get a regulator going – he couldn’t get a grip.

FURTHER COMMENTS FROM LAMAR ENGLISH
At the stage pickup just as I had clipped on my bottle, Bill flashed me and shined his light on Sherwood. Bill had drifted about 30 feet downstream while donning his stage. I saw Sherwood about ten feet away fumbling with his stage and the line. I unclipped from my scooter and was at him almost immediately. I almost went for my knife but did not. He was wrapped up pretty bad around the valves and first stages of his stage bottles. It took me some thirty to forty seconds to clear him and finish putting on his stage. He looked stressed. As soon as I gave the OK, Sherwood hit the trigger. Bill did also, staying ahead of him. I got my scooter and followed. Visibility in the restriction was poor and I was using my scooter in short bursts following the line. Visibility dropped to four feet and suddenly I found the line had ended, lying broken on the floor. I began searching for the other end of the line. I found it fifteen feet away when I came upon Sherwood halfway through the vertical restriction. I could see him from mid- thigh down. He was slowly kicking with both legs, the second stage regulator from his left outside stage bottle was caught on a projection, and his scooter was between his legs. The end of the line was through his propeller shroud and around the prop a few wraps. I cleared the line, un-snagged his second stage and signaled for him to go – two squeezes on the leg. He kicked once with each leg very slowly and then was still. I waited for 20-30 seconds and he had not moved at all, absolutely still. I reached out and grabbed his left leg just above the knee and squeezed like hell. There was no reaction at all. Nothing. Not even so much as a flinch. I checked my pressure gauge and I had over 1600 psi in my 104’s. I ditched my scooter and two of my stages. I then unclipped Sherwood’s scooter from him and pushed him ahead of me for a few feet until the cave widened enough for me to get beside him. He was dead. I couldn’t believe it… I followed the line through the silt for a short distance and saw the glow of Bill’s light shining my way through the silt. As I approached him he turned to continue our exit. I grabbed him by the fins then reached up for his crotch strap and signaled go. Bill started motoring and I tucked into position for the ride out.

GEORGE SAID
...Gavin went back the next day to get Sherwood and he told me this: he told me that he just wanted to make sure that he did not back off from Sherwood and that he had made a clean pass and done the right thing and given him a full bottle. Now keep in mind that this is number three for Gavin - Bill McFadden ran out of gas on him and nearly drowned him (Gavin not on the dive but went back into the cave when McFadden;'s buddy had left him), Parker Turner ran out of gas on him at Indian and died, and then this situation.

REPLY FROM GAVIN
I went back to recover Sherwood because he was a friend and it was the last thing I could do for him. When we were at McFaden’s funeral Parker came to me and said they were asking for pallbearers. It terrified me, but Parker had tears in his eyes and said, “It’s the last thing I can do for him”. I grabbed a handle. That thought went through my mind when we were discussing Sherwood’s recovery. I don't recall ever having the conversation that George describes. If I had talked to anyone it would have been Lamar or Bill Main who were and are like brothers to me. Even if something like that was said, what is the point? Sherwood’s death was not caused by any failure on the part of Lamar or me as insinuated by George. As stated previously, the bottle that I gave Sherwood WAS about half full. My opinion is that he passed out while gasping for breath. For whatever reason he could not get gas into his lungs. When he dropped the second stage of my long hose I thought he had the stage bottle. As Lamar stated, Sherwood had been kicking, with his fins almost in the silt at the bottom of the restriction. This had blown out over him and me. I couldn’t see him, couldn’t see what if anything he was hung up on, but I sure thought he had gas (which in fact he did). It was several weeks before all the pieces of the puzzle emerged to form some kind of explanation. Only in hindsight did it seem clear that the two incidents, the first entanglement and then the broken line and second entanglement had pushed him into a state of panic that he could not recover from.

GEORGE SAID
...By the way, that is when I took over the WKPP

REPLY FROM GAVIN
Really? George "took over" WKPP several months later. He did it without telling anyone else on the team, just starting telling all the people at Wakulla that he was in charge. He never asked me. I found out from Greg Knecht who had found out from someone at Wakulla. George and I had a bitter argument about it, but I was fed up with the politics so eventually I let it pass. I figured, “Let him deal with the nonsense if he wants to so badly.” I can assure you that he didn’t assume the role of project leader through a popular vote. For that matter, let me say that in my opinion WKPP no longer exists. Some people may be using the name, but the true project died long ago. The last word of WKPP is “Project”. We were a sanctioned ”project” of the National Speleological Society. Parker worked extremely hard to get us that recognition. That ended when George chose to start flaming everyone that didn't agree with him via e-mail, using the foulest, most immature language possible. When word got back to the folks at NSS (our competitors were all too happy to copy and display these e-mails) they cancelled our project status. Sponsors like DUI stopped talking to us. No one wanted to be associated with WKPP anymore. Eventually, I didn’t either. Parker Turner created the Woodville Karst Plain Project. George destroyed it. Whatever is left is a sad joke.

GEORGE SAID
They did several things wrong besides taking Sherwood on this dive and not using enough scooters. They let Sherwood do it his way, they balked when the shit hit the fan, they did not positively control and solve the situation and put it to bed, they left working scooters and went out on one (could have then killed those two if the batteries died , which is amazing that they did not after the distance they traveled on one scooter), and they failed to recognize any of their mistakes. What they both did right was quit cave diving shortly thereafter. Not that these two guys did not posses more skill than I have ever seen, but you just can't lose the game that badly and keep playing.

REPLY FROM GAVIN
We didn’t use enough scooters? How many scooters do you need for three people? Three seemed like an obvious number. The scooters that I designed and built, without ANY input from George, had reliably transited similar distances as this dive on many occasions. Despite claims on his website, George didn’t contribute one dime or one brain cell to the first two “Gavin” scooters built. He has made some minor changes to the way the scooters are assembled. I haven’t seen them so I can’t say whether they are good or bad, but the original is still sitting in my garage, fully functional, and George’s fingerprints aren’t on it nor did he pay for one piece of it. He has been more than happy to make money using my name, then turn around and post lies about my friends and me. There was no scooter failure on this dive and Sherwood’s death was completely unrelated to the number of scooters we used, so what would taking more have accomplished?

I’ve already discussed the purpose of the three-man dive team. If any one scooter fails you have two divers to share the towing load, which we had gotten quite good at. Another point about our scooters: we routinely tested the batteries by discharging them into a known load that was similar to the draw from the motors used. I showed George how to do that and even gave him the part numbers for the resistors. He never would have figured it out by himself.

We ”balked”? I already described Lamar’s steel nerve in assisting Sherwood and my efforts to share air with him. We “balked”? We did the best we could in a terrifying situation. ANYONE who claims they wouldn’t be scared in that situation is a liar. But, you still do what you have to do. Sherwood drowned because he couldn't breathe. He had plenty of gas left and me trying to give him more and he still drowned. His family believes he had an asthma attack. He had suffered from childhood asthma and they think stress brought it back that day. That may be or, it may be that he hyperventilated to unconsciousness. Either way, I'd like to see George or anyone else do any better. You can't breathe for someone else.

As mentioned earlier, Sherwood had helped Lamar and me with a body recovery two weeks before this dive. I hadn't seen or talked to him much during those two weeks. He seemed fine that morning, a little nervous, but not unusually so, considering we had a big dive ahead. I had spent a lot of time planning this dive, calculating air consumption, bottom times, deco gas requirements, etc. I knew we had everything in place. Unfortunately, Sherwood had apparently had a crisis of confidence. We found out later that he had been talking to other people about how badly the body recovery had affected him mentally. The night before this dive he didn’t sleep well and waking early, asked his roommate to pray with him. Unfortunately, he didn't tell any of this to us. We found out several days later. The dive went like clockwork for 8000 feet in (adding 1000 feet of line) and 6000 feet out. Then, Sherwood had a couple of problems that should have been easily manageable and he came unraveled. One way or the other, Sherwood died of fear, whether it induced asthma or caused him to hyperventilate. Once panic progresses to a certain point in someone you cannot "take control" of it. Remember what I said about trying to assist a panicked diver? At some point it is going to get you killed, but we sure as hell tried. For George to talk about “brass balls” and “taking control” is arm chair quarter backing from someone who has never been in such a situation. Pitiful, really.

We left working scooters? We had a thousand feet to go and tons of gas. We could have easily swam out. More opinions from someone who wasn't there and isn't nearly as smart as he believes himself to be. For my part, I thought I was towing Sherwood. I didn’t know why the hell he had left his scooter, and under the circumstances I didn’t think stopping to ask him was an efficient use of time or gas. On Lamar’s end, he didn’t know why the hell Sherwood had died in a restriction in front of him, he just knew he needed to get to the other side of it and get a ride out. He had to navigate through a restriction past Sherwood's body. He elected not to add the hassle of dragging his scooter through too. I've got no problem with that decision at all. For anyone to use that to criticize us is ridiculous.

For George to say that we failed to recognize our mistakes is yet more ego building for himself. What he means is we failed to agree with his opinions about the dive. We analyzed that dive over and over again. The only serious mistake I can see is that we weren’t mind readers. I guess with all of George’s other super powers he has that one too.

FURTHER COMMENTS FROM ENGLISH
At this point I knew Sherwood was dead - I had only one dive buddy. I made my way to him and saw that he was okay. Now I had to make a choice regarding scooters: I could either, 1. Tow out. OR 2. Swim back into a zero visibility silt out, follow a line, run into my friend who is dead, move his body, go through a restriction into an area where the line is broken, find my scooter, find the line, go back through the restriction with scooter, run into friend who is dead, move his body, follow line in silt out with scooter, find dive buddy and SCOOTER out! Gee, let me think about that one for a while…


*********************************************

 Setting it straight Part II
Part II



GEORGE SAID
…What they both did right was quit cave diving shortly thereafter. Not that these two guys did not posses more skill than I have ever seen, but you just can't lose the game that badly and keep playing.

REPLY FROM GAVIN
This is interesting. What we did right was quit cave diving shortly thereafter? George seems to forget that after Sherwood's death he and Lamar and I did multiple exploration dives together in downstream Turner Sink and later in Wakulla, extending the exploration to nearly 8000 feet at a depth of 300 feet. I dove there with Sheck Exley shortly before his death in Mexico. Sheck wrote a glowing article about the dive and the Hogarthian techniques employed by WKPP. George was happy enough to dive with us and did exactly what I told him to do, the way I told him to, or I wouldn’t have dove with him. Diving isn't a "game" and we didn't quit "playing" because of these fatalities. We quit for a variety of reasons. The final straw for Lamar was probably when Sheck died in Mexico. (I was hundreds of miles away, but maybe George can figure out a way to blame me for that one too.) I quit diving for a lot of reasons, not the least of them being that I didn't enjoy being associated with the e-mail flaming, swaggering and name calling. I didn’t enjoy the politics involved in gaining access to virtually everywhere in the Tallahassee area. Anyway, you do something for 20 years and do it well you have the right to say, “Enough”. George's assertion that we “quit cave diving shortly thereafter” is at best, inaccurate. I didn’t quit until more than a year later.

GEORGE SAID
I do not let things go by like this and then wonder what the problem is, and I sure as hell do no go on repeating it. Learn from this, and if anyone is teaching you anything different, know that it is not DIR and it is not right.

REPLY FROM GAVIN
“do no go”? You evidently don’t read and edit your postings very carefully either, but I digress. “The problem is” that human beings aren’t perfect, not even George. From what I have heard a great deal of DIR teachings evolved from Hogarthian techniques developed over many years of trial and yes, error. However, some DIR policies are absurd. I have heard that “swim dives” are not allowed. What are these DIR divers going to do when a scooter fails? Oh, I guess scooter failures aren’t allowed either. We used to force ourselves to do swim dives even when we didn’t want to, in order to stay proficient at swimming. If you are blindly following all these policies I suggest you think again. When no one is allowed to question anything, stagnation is inevitable. The truth is that George and his followers would never have done anything significant if he had not hooked up with Parker and me. We taught him Hogarthian cave diving techniques, taught him mixed gas diving and I taught him how to build diver propulsion vehicles that he seems to think he invented

REGARDING BILL MCFADEN’S DEATH
I previously wrote a detailed account of the 1988 dive that resulted in Bill McFaden’s death. It was published somewhere, shortly thereafter, though I don’t recall where. I’m sure it can be located on the internet by those that are interested. At the time of McFaden’s death George was years away from becoming involved with cave diving or the WKPP and in my view has no business commenting on it. I was solo diving on my scooter in a different part of Little Dismal than Bill Main and Bill McFaden. I was in a very tight downstream siphon and didn’t want anyone behind me. Main and McFaden, who were swimming, had gone to survey about two hundred feet of line that McFaden and I had laid a week or two before. On the day of McFaden’s death I had finished my dive and was on my way out when Bill Main signaled me from the downstream section. George incorrectly (and rather callously) stated that McFaden’s buddy (Main) “left him”. Main had emerged from a low silty area thinking McFaden was right behind him. He turned and waited for McFaden, but McFaden did not come. At this time he had only been waiting a few seconds and did not think there was a problem, but wanted me to hang out just in case. I got a bad feeling and some instinct made me elect to enter the area. I found McFaden within 100 feet, off the line, not moving. I led him out and just as we emerged into clear water he signaled out of gas. Keep in mind, McFaden has been missing for one to two minutes and is already out of gas? I gave him my long hose and I could hear him breathing like a horse and knew he was scared. He grabbed my manifold like a vise and I hit the trigger. We got to a vertical pit and I stopped motoring and started venting my dry suit. Suddenly I realized that even though I was venting as fast as I could we were ascending rapidly. McFaden would not let go of my manifold to vent his suit. Next thing I knew I was pinned like a bug to the ceiling. I couldn't get him to let go of my manifold so I could even turn around. I finally had to use the scooter to pull us back down so we could continue out. During the entire exit, Bill Main had hold of McFaden’s legs, trying to pull him down by getting as negatively buoyant as he could. By the time we got near the entrance I ran out of gas. I was seconds away from passing out when Bill Main starting buddy breathing with me on his short hose. By now Bill had already given his long hose to McFaden. Bill Main never hesitated to share gas with both of us, even if it meant buddy breathing off a short hose. At this point my head was a ball of screaming agony from carbon dioxide build up. I could barely do anything but try to catch my breath. After a minute or so I noticed Bill Main picking his long hose up from the floor. He grabbed my arm and pulled me out of the silted out bedding plane area back into the cave. I was screaming into my/his regulator because I DID NOT want to go back INTO the cave, but he was taking us to clearer water. Off to the left I saw McFaden upside down on the ceiling, pressed there by his dry suit, apparently dead. (The preliminary autopsy report indicated that he had embolised. I would guess that this occurred during the rapid ascent from the pit at 180 feet or during the final ascent across the last room.) Once in clear water, we stabilized our situation, swapped second stages so I would be on Main’s long hose, relocated the line and made our exit. When I broke down my gear later you could take my regulators off the manifold without even closing the valves. I did everything I could for McFaden and so did Bill Main and we both nearly got killed. Make absolutely no mistake - trying to rescue a panicked diver is one of the most dangerous things you can attempt.

REGARDING PARKER TURNER’S DEATH
As in the case of Bill McFaden, I wrote a detailed description of the dive that led to Parker’s death at Indian Springs. At the end, we were both desperately searching for an exit in very bad visibility in two different areas. He found one, but ran out of gas thirty feet from our deco bottles. I found his tanks a few minutes later and he wasn’t in them. Almost out of gas, I raced to our deco bottles and realized Parker wasn’t there. The event that trapped Parker and me was a sand slide in the cavern area that plugged the exit. So much sand moved so rapidly downhill that it triggered a turbidity current that caused the spring flow to temporarily reverse and silt to be blown 500 feet into the cave. It was almost certainly triggered by a diver in the cavern zone and could have been caused by George as easily as anyone else. It is too great a coincidence to believe that this just happened for no apparent reason while we were all diving. The point is that it's rather ironic for George to criticize me regarding Parker’s death. There's an important issue here. I have always felt that during any exploration dive there should be as few other people in the water as possible. Parker overruled me that day and invited several people to come do "grins" dives. There were dives going on before and even during our push. I believe if we had not allowed this, Parker would be alive today.

Another point of interest is that no one above or in the water, including George, considered the fact that we might need help. The water level in the basin dropped two feet, the basin started swirling in a circle, flow from the spring run reversed and visibility in the cavern zone went to near zero. No one said, "Hmm, this could be a problem for Bill and Parker." No one, including George, “stepped in, took control, or acted decisively” to find or rescue us. Incredible. But, in a way I know why. This event was so unprecedented in our experience that none of us could fathom it. I assumed (and I think Parker did too) that the entire cavern zone had collapsed into a pile of rock. Had I known what had happened and that it was only sand we could have dug our way out in half the time we wasted at the blockage. People on the surface looked on in wonder at the behavior of the basin, but had nothing to associate it with. People in the water did not connect the bad visibility to a potential problem for Parker and me. Still, I don’t blame anyone there for failing to grasp the significance of what they saw and I certainly don’t blame myself for Parker’s death. Sometimes you just have plain, damn, bad luck.

Later, discussions with other divers revealed that this type of event had occurred at Indian Springs before. Over a period of time the spring flow builds up the sand slope in the cavern until it reaches an unstable angle. All it needs is the right trigger to collapse. This type of event has also been witnessed at Wakulla Springs by divers like Wally Jenkins in the late 1950’s. He personally told me the story of that day and it is also documented in Bob Burgess’s book, The Cave Divers (page 91-93).

FURTHER COMMENTS FROM ENGLISH
Regarding Bill McFaden’s death, I have nothing to say – I was not there.
Regarding the circumstances of Parker Turner’s death – I have something to add, as I was on the other side of that restriction, as was George. For George to simply say “Parker Turner ran out of gas on him [Gavin] at Indian and died” insinuates that Bill was somehow negligent or even responsible for Parker’s death. This conveniently leaves out some pertinent information. George and I had put in some deco bottles for Bill and Parker. We then did a dive upstream on scooters. Our dive went rather smoothly and I called it as our depth approached 150’. (We were on nitrox). The ride out was uneventful and we exited the cave through the restriction at 130’ ascending into the cavern to begin decompression. We did a 4 minute forty foot stop then moved up to 30’. I went out to the left, near the deco trough, still inside the cavern. George, however, simply rose to the ceiling, vertical in the water, head in a small air pocket. I thought nothing of it. A few moments later I glanced back over at George who was 3 or 4 feet beneath the cavern ceiling, still vertical, but backstroking wildly with his arms as he was trying to escape from underneath a downpour of sand, rocks and debris from straight over his head. It was the damndest thing I had ever seen… I got my scooter and went well out into the basin, away from anything overhead. George did also. We watched sand literally pour out of the ceiling as if a dump truck was unloading through a 2 foot diameter hole in the cave ceiling. This went on for twenty or thirty more seconds. I had never seen anything like that in my life… Visibility deteriorated rapidly. Do I think this started the sand slide that blocked the restriction? Yes; SOMETHING started it… Do I think it was intentional or foreseeable in any way? No, I don’t. It wasn’t until some 40 minutes later, halfway into our 10 foot stop that any of us, (except Bill and Parker), had a clue that anything had occurred deeper in the system… I had written George a note “wonder how much line they laid?” He went to check and upon his return wrote “they’re not there”. Incredulous, I scootered back into the cave, past deco bottles at 70’ and then at 110’. At 130’ the floor and the ceiling met and the line just disappeared into sand and rock. I thought part of the cavern had collapsed… I surfaced immediately to get help digging. Motoring back into the cave, I noticed a bottle gone from 70’ and one from 110’, and at 130’ I found Parker’s doubles draped over the line, empty, manifold down, his primary light illuminating a spool of line that disappeared into a small opening to the right of the permanent line. Parker was not in his tanks… Was this 1991 tragedy Bill Gavin’s fault? Absolutely NOT.

A LAST WORD FROM GAVIN
My last cave dives were in Wakulla Springs with George in mid to late 1995. In late1995, I bought a 35-foot sailboat and began to rebuild it from the hull up. As I said earlier, I wanted a break from cave diving. In 1997, my future wife and I sailed that boat from Panama City, FL, all the way to Grenada and back. We didn’t have any crew, just the two of us. We survived gale force seas during an 800 mile crossing in the Atlantic, broken autopilots, various engine failures, groundings, being bumped by sharks, you name it. When I got back I thought seriously about a return to cave diving. My wife never objected. However, I had begun to realize that there were other exciting pursuits in life that weren’t filled with politics and bitter invective. After a while the urge to do those dives faded. I remember a lot of wonderful experiences while cave diving, but I don’t need to prove anything to anyone. One hundred years from now no one will remember my name, or George’s either for that matter. I have ignored the arguments associated with cave diving for years. I’ve ignored George as well, letting him have his fun. However, when he personally attacked me I felt compelled to respond.

I believe cave diving should be fun. It should be absolutely joyous. It's not worth doing if it isn't. That’s the way I remember most of it being and when it stopped being that way, I quit. It's not about shooting your mouth off on the Internet. Everyone in the original WKPP did it because they loved it. We would have done it if we never got one iota of credit or publicity. We kept doing it through some heartbreaking tragedies. The closest friendships I will ever have were formed because of cave diving. The best days of my life and the worst as well are associated with cave diving. If you don't love it, why are you doing it? Hopefully, it is not so you can feed your ego on some Tech diver e-mail list. My advice is simple, "Shut up and go dive”.

Sincerely,
Bill Gavin
 

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Lamar English, Bill Gavin AND Bill 'Hogarth' Main have all made posts recently, essentially all stating that GI3 (and JJ to a lesser extent) have been talking a lot of garbage.

What exactly HAS GI3 done for the sport tho, WL? He didn't invent the Hog rig, nor even the DIR concept. Tho he seems to have impressively p'd off the people who largely DID. Doesn't that tell you something..?

A certain saying about "standing on the shoulders of giants" has a tendency to come to mind when GI3 maeks some of his posts.. maybe the way he can talk about learning huge amounts from people one minute and blame them for deaths due to bad practices a second later..
 

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I understand what you are saying about having your posts picked apart Andy, but I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree about Irvine, his posts are usually aggressive without reason, they are usually defamatory from the off... you know yourself people daren't post on Quest for fear of having Irvine come down on them, that's why there is so much private posting going on...

Irvine can shoot off into a raving rant about people from the most simplistic of posts, a simple equipmet question can start him off screaming about Tom Mount and others.. he appears (to me) to use nearly every post on Quest to praise himself or his record and then goes on to slam everyone else including his own WKPP team.. the ONLY other person he say's good things about is JJ... He is without doubt the most vain self loving individual I've ever come across in my whole life, he and he alone makes me feel that my subscription to Quest is not worth it.

Sorry mate, you know I'm dyed in the wool DIR but Irvine makes me mad...  


Now if only Irvine could post as calmly as yourself and disseminate information in the same style he's be an absolute asset to DIR but as it is, he doesn't give a toss if anyone outside of his team dives DIR anyway, but fortunately thats where JJ AG and GUE come in.. Thankgod!!
 

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I have to say, i'm no cave diving expert and know little enough of the politics of this whole shabang, but - everything I have ever read that George Irvine has written, and everything I have read about George Irvine screams out TOSSER.  When people have a go at him, I think 'that's a bit harsh' and then he opens his mouth in reply and I think 'no, actually, he is a prat' He must be DIR's greatest enemy, he's certainly the reason everyone I know rejects DIR before even trying it. Which is a pity. In fact he's such a prat that I sometimes suspect that he's a plant, inserted to undermine DIR from within? Do you think his mum showed him enough attention as a child?
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]he's certainly the reason everyone I know rejects DIR before even trying it.
I don't think even that's the worst of it - it's the way that you can meet people who've got a full-on DIR rig, and even been GUE-trained, and yet adamantly maintain they aren't DIR, simply because they don't want to be associated with GI3 and his clones..

You'd have to look pretty closely to find anything in my rig that was considered non-DIR (boots excepted
), but whilst I've explained the reasons I have my rig the way I do to interested club members, I've never once said "You can read all about it if you look up DIR on the net" because frankly, I'd rather they didn't read the stuff written by GI3 and link it to me.
 

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Here's the report on Parker Turners death;
(Taken from www.cisatlantic.com)

Diving Accident at Indian Springs

by Bill Gavin

There's a lot of talk these days about the need for experience in conducting technical dives without an real clarification of what being an "experienced diver" really means. Some equate it to an individual's years in diving. Others equate it to the number and types of dives the conducted or certifications earned. Ultimately perhaps it is a measure of a diver's ability to function effectively under pressure when everything goes wrong.

When Bill Gavin's account of the freak accident that resulted in Parker Turner's death first appeared in the NACD Journal (Vol.23 No. 4, 4th Qt. 1991) it caused a number of us to reexamine our own experience in light of the test that was put to Gavin and Parker. Their skill and experience as a team was probably the only thing that prevented this tradegy from turning into a double fatality.

This article has now become a part of the training manual at the Key West Technical Diving Center and is required reading for everyone beginning a gas course. How do you rate something as elusive as experience?

Read on. M2

This is an account of the diving accident at Indian Springs on November 17, 1991, that resulted in the death of Parker Turner. It is an account of the experiences of the dive team and not of the surface personnel or support divers that were present that day. That information is included in a separate report.

Our dive at Indian Springs was the first in a series of exploration dives that had been in the planning stages for nearly two years. Because of the unique profile of the cave and the extreme depth at the point at which actual exploration would take place special decompression tables had been generated by Dr. R.W. Hamilton. The dive plan consisted of a 40 minute transit at 140 FSW while breathing an EAN 27 travel mix (27% oxygen, balance nitrogen), a descent and exploration at 300 FSW using trimix 14/44 (14% O2, 44% He, balance N2) followed by the return 40 minute transit to exit the cave. The deep working phase of the dive was expected to last 20 to 25 minutes. The 140 FSW penetration and exit was done using two 80 cubic feet "stage" bottles, while the deep portion was accomplished using back mounted double 104's.

The dive went almost exactly according to plan during the penetration. The deep section known as "Wakulla Room" was explored in three different directions. None of these yielded any going tunnel or evidence of flow. We began our exit at 63 minutes into the dive. At this time I had 2300 psig in my double 104's and I assume that Parker had the same or slightly less. We reached our nitrox bottles at the top of the room in two to three minutes, began breathing them, and did not use our doubles again until we encountered the obstruction at what is known as the "Squaws Restriction." After picking up our second stage bottle during the exit, Parker signalled that his Diver Propulsion Vehicle seemed to be running slow. We linked up via a tow strap and I increased the speed setting on my DPV to maximum. We were only about 1500 feet from the entrance, so this did not present a serious problem.

There is a distinctive arrow marker at the upstream/downstream junction which is about 500 feet from the entrance. As this arrow came into view, I remember estimating that our bottom time was going to be somewhere between 105 to 110 minutes. We made the left turn at this arrow and immediately noticed that the visibility in the cave had decreased. The floor was completely obscured by billowing clouds of silt, but the line was still in clear water near the ceiling. As we got closer to the entrance, the visibility got progressively worse. Finally, we had to stop using the DPV and swim while maintaining physical line contact. When we got to where I thought the restriction should be, the line disappeared into the sand on the bottom of the cave. We began pulling the line out of the sand, but some reached a point where it was buried too deep. Visibility in this area was 1 foot or less. I heard Parker shout into his regulator, "What's this?" We backed up out of the low area and removed our stage bottles and scooters. At about this time, the second bottle that I had been breathing during the exit ran out. Realizing that the situation was not going to be quickly resolved, I elected to switch immediately to my doubles, which still had about 2000 psig of gas. There were two lines running parallel in the cave at this point. We tried following both of them, but each time got to a point where the line could not be pulled from the sand which had covered it.

I secured the line from the reel that we had carried with us to the end of the permanent line (where it was buried) and tried to search for a way out. The restriction seemed to be completely blocked with sand and perhaps rock. The visibility was so bad that we could not really figure out exactly where we were or what had happened. However, there was flow and I tried to follow that. After finding no way past the blockage, I began to have doubts about our exact location. It seemed as though we must have made some mistake. While Parker continued to search, I swam about 300 feet back into the cave until I saw the upstream/downstream arrow marker. Though this marker is quite distinctive, I had to stare at it for a few seconds to convince myself that I really knew where we were. I swam back to the point where we had left our bottles and scooters. Parker was waiting there.

I am not sure how many attempts we made to retrieve the buried line, but at least 45 minutes passed while we sought in vain for some way out. At one point Parker showed me his pressure gauge which indicated about 400 psig of gas remaining in his doubles. He wrote on his slate, "What do we do?" I knew he was hoping I had some idea, but the only thing I could think to write back was "Hold on. I'll go look."

I went back to search using my reel and sweeping left and right. Finding no exit, I decided to return to the stage bottles, which at least had a little more gas to offer. I had been gone for less than five minutes. When I returned to the bottles, Parker was not there. I found my second stage bottle, which had about 600 psig left in it. I began breathing it while trying to think of some plan. After about four minutes it ran out and I switched back to my doubles, which now had less than 300 psig of gas. With no other alternative, I decided to try one last effort at finding an opening. As I started back out I saw that another line had be "Tee'd" into the permanent line. I followed it without really understanding how it had gotten there. I reached a point at which the cave seemed to open up and saw something hanging down on the edge of my vision. As I swam under the object it dimly occurred to me that it was the second stage of a scuba regulator. By now my doubles were almost empty and my regulator caught on my manifold as I passed. I rolled to my left to free it. At this point, I looked up and saw the permanent line rising at a sharp angle. I realized that I had cleared the restriction and raced to our decompression bottles, which were hung at 100 feet. I was almost holding my breath by the time I unclipped the second stage and began breathing from my first decompression bottle. Parker was not at the bottles and I realized at this time that he had drowned.

The regulator that had caught on my manifold was from his doubles, which he had removed and dragged through the small opening. I had no idea where Parker was and the visibility was still less than two feet. Numbly, I waited for support personnel to find me. In the confusion that followed, many lines were laid throughout the cavern area by our support divers in attempt to locate Parker's body. Despite their efforts, he was not found until the following morning when visibility had increased to about 10 feet. It had been 60 feet or better when we started our dive.

During the four hours of decompression that followed, I was gradually filled in on the situation by our support crew. Without their efforts, I think I would have gone mad wondering what had happened. For a long time I did not know if the entire entrance to the cave had collapsed or if anyone else was missing. I also had no idea what kind of decompression to follow. Though I fully expected to suffer decompression sickness, I emerged from the water with no physical damage. Apparently the fact that we had been shallower than expected during our deep exploration saved me from that malady.

After going over the incident countless times we were able to deduce what probably happened during those last minutes. While waiting for me, Parker must have decided to take his tanks off and try to squeeze through the blockage. Running short on gas, he probably decided that he couldn't wait any longer. He Tee'd in his safety spool and, dragging his tanks, was able to find a way through the blockage. Perhaps in doing so he caused the sand to shift enough that I was able to pass through a few minutes later with my doubles still on. After making it through the restriction he ran out of gas just 30 feet short of our decompression tanks. When he passed out, he dropped his doubles and floated to the ceiling about 15 to 20 feet above. His tanks landed on the permanent line and hung there. The line from the safety spool was tangled around his tanks. Whether this contributed to his death is impossible to say. Certainly it would have been difficult to lay line while dragging tanks and fighting extreme positive buoyancy from his drysuit. Miraculously, this combination of events, the line tangling on his tanks which then caught on the permanent line, placed the line from his spool in the only location large enough for a diver in doubles to squeeze through. I believe that even a one minute delay in my exit would have been enough to prevent me from ever reaching the decompression bottles.

It is still a mystery as to what caused the collapse at Indian. The actual physical event was that an unstable debris slope slid downhill filling the small restriction with sand. At about the same time, surface personnel witnessed a drop in the water level in the basin of approximately one foot, and a reversal of the spring run leaving Indian. Within 30 minutes, the water had dropped and returned to its normal level. Perhaps 100,000 gallons of water has rushed into the cave and several tons of sand had moved downhill several yards. The rush of water into the cave was great enough both in magnitude and duration to affect visibility 500 feet from the entrance.

I will not attempt to describe the effect this accident has had on myself or Parker's many friends and family. To say that we have lost a good friend, that we will miss him, that his place in our lives can never be filled is all true and also inadequate. Grief is a personal emotion, difficult to completely comprehend, and for me, not easily shared. To the many friends that have helped me through this, I offer a thanks the depth of which only they can understand. In all times to follow, whether diving together or in moments shared on other pursuits or when far apart, I will not forget any of you.
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hello,

Obviously I just checked for any relpies from GI and if there will be I will post them here, just to here both sides as WL did.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If it wasn't for him, we'd still be diving on our knees.
Apart from being one of the phrases that do harm DIR so now I know why my knees hurt so much after each dive  
 bacause as stated by WL, considering the fact that I am not a GI fan and do anything he says. Also about these mails, everyone is intelligent enough and can choose from right to wrong.

Also what did he do for the sport apart from earning a lot of money, he didn't invent the wing, back plate, scooter or just Scuba or a breather ?!? I think he is a BIG diver but nothing more that that.

WL I hope that you don't think I am agaist you, or of taking you posts apart, other way round I like to discuss with you as many time it ends up in a bright discussing and even can leran something as happened about the deco thread.

Regards

Pierre
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If you dive at Stoney on a Sunday you will know what I mean. Generally, the divers are either kneeling doing skills or bouncing along the bottom kicking the silt up.
That's because they are learning to dive and practicing skills before they get thrown into a proper dive without sufficient skills.

GI is without doubt responsible for bringing it all together in a mainstream way BUT if he hadnt been born do you think diving would be so very much worse off. I'm not saying that because I dont like the guy, I respect what he has achieved, but because I dont believe he has done much for diving in general. He is obnoxious, arrogant and acording to Gavin wrong in lots of what he says.
Let me ask one final question, what happens to DIR when he no longer has an interest in it, who takes over the mantle and who will prevent free-thought to the extent he has.

Matt
 

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Deco - sorry, I must have missed that one. When did GI3 invent deco..?
I know what you mean - however, the proportion of divers using WKPP-derived deco is very small. Pyle stops are far more widespread than anything GI3 has produced. Sadly, tho, he's a stroke, what with being a RB diver and all..

standard gasses - virtually every diver has their 'standard gases'. BSAC has standard gases, for Heaven's sake! And just ask Mark Chase what he thinks about the DIR-approved standard gases..

standard procedures - again, EVERY agency has standard procedures.

sharing DIR with the sport in general for free - DIR are still the minority. Even hog rigs aren't a particularly large minority. And very little of what DIR calls for was invented in the WKPP under GI3s rule.

stopping the deaths at Wakulla, furthering the exploration at Wakulla - well, that certainly benefitted the WKPP... but what has it done for the sport? What difference does it make to a typical diver that the Wakulla springs are well-explored?

helping in the development of the RB80 - might be considered a contribution to the sport when it reaches anywhere near the number of other RBs on the market, but currently, it doesn't. Doesn't really even have enough to give any meaningful numbers about how safe it is or isn't..

why don't you ask him on quest?
Because I'm not DIR enoguh to subscribe to it..? And because I've read more than enough of GI3s diatribes to know exactly what he'd say.
 

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There's good and there's bad Instructors as you well know.

I'd define a free thought as collecting all/any ideas about something, perhaps the long hose and evaluating it for myself, not being dictated to by someone else. If you dive DIR you HAVE to have certain stuff you are not allowed to use your own set-up, therefore you are not allowed free thought unless you agree with the rules. Surely that isnt free thought.

Puttting your own kit together is fine as long as you are allowed to differ from 'standard' if thats what you think works best for you.

Are you really trying to compare diving with a team of footballers? If you believe that allowing the 'average' footballer to do his own stuff on the pitch would be a good idea I shudder. Those that can and do are very rare beasts, Pele perhaps, Geoerge Best even.

I would agree in some diving situations a team approach to kit, configuration, gases, mentatlity etc. is required, but not all and I think to be arrogant enough to dictate that approach to ALL diving is ridiculous.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]PS Dominic, I can't be arsed to argue just because you're bored at work. If you don't agree fine. Have a one sided conversation with yourself. And if you aren't DIR enough to subscribe then you don't know enough to debate DIR. I like to discuss things with people who know both sides of the argument, whatever that 'argument' is.
Actually, I'd genuinely like to know what GI3 can actually put his hand on his heart and say "I did that!" - Because in all honesty I'm not aware of anything. You ought to know by now that I have no problems with DIR or people who use it - I'm not trying to pick a fight.

And the reason I'm not DIR enough for quest is nothing to do with knowledge - it's the fact that Quest is for peope who are "committed to DIR principles" (or whatever the wording is/was) and I'm not one of them. For the exact same reason as GI3 wouldn't be welcome on the Inspiration mailing list, I'm not wanted on Quest.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]How can that statement harm DIR?
If you respond in a GI manner you can put off people from DIR as happened many times before.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]AIUI George still works, and donates all the money from the scooters to the WKPP, who do not have sponsorship and must still pay for gasses, repairs etc. The money is made by Halcyon and maybe GUE (I doubt that GUE make much money) neither of which George has an interest in.
So think that by promoting DIR and GUE he earn no money? How many divers world wide who dive DIR does not use Halycon equipment? He promotes DIR as good cause but money is an other thing, just my opinion.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]As far as you choosing right from wrong, again I cannot control that and so do not try. I posted Georges response and gave my opinion. Sorry if it doesn't concur with yours (well, I'm not sorry actually, but I'm being polite). I'm not sure whether you are implying that I am a GI fan and do everything he says in a derogatory manner so I won't bite. Again, I can't control your opinion so I won't try.
That you posted GI replay is a good thing as balance is always welcome. GI fan means that you are very much biased towards GI side but catually yes can be your definition as you do what GI says, itsn't that DIR, you follow thw rules, and who makes the rules GI!

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Georges contribution? Deco, standard gasses, standard procedures, sharing DIR with the sport in general for free, stopping the deaths at Wakulla, furthering the exploration at Wakulla, helping in the development of the RB80. Oh, and he's done all that without ever losing a buddy. I don't have to defend him, he does enough by himself, why don't you ask him on quest? Nah, didn't think you would
I done TDI and have my standard gases for deco and travel nd even best mix for a given depth, I choose what mix is best.
To lose a buddy does not mean you are perefect, it can be you have very good buddies, also many time we are comparing tech/cave divining from 10years ago to now, of which now we have greater knowledge, many if nor all these depths made diving safer, as many times we learn the hard way. As for quest it does not interest me at all, what shold I ask him? Considering the fact he says Gavin is a liar, on a dive we was not on and does not know first hand what happened!

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Discussions are fine, but sometimes I think my definition is different to yours. Just life I suppose
I think that's why we write in a forum to have a discussion, sometimes we agree and sometime we don't but that does not makes us enemys,....I think. Also on this post I think you should calm a little bit down, as I have done in the past, using a GI manner does not help, I prefer to discuss with you in your usual manner.

Hope I didn't offend you in any way but tried to respond your post, maybe some times I do not find the exact word for a given meaning but I am not 100% in english

Regards

Pierre
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ Oct. 10 2003,10:05)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I must admit, when being attacked on YD and my posts are picked apart just to score points
Not true. Your posts get picked apart because you post often outragious, ill informed, misleading and down right wrong stuff. When asked for clarification or proof (apart from because I said so), you go strangeley quiet. When you have offered a convincing argument it has always been accepted or filed under OK do it your way. No one is interested in scoring points. Its just the way a discussion board works.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Imagine what its like for him, when he knows so much yet everyone is looking to bring him down to their level. If it wasn't for him, we'd still be diving on our knees.
That is perhaps the stupidist thing you have ever posted


Sounds very much like a GI3 post to me

Your level of hero worship and devotion to GI3 is frankley disterbing. DIR has a lot to offer but GI3 is a prat who would be kicked out if he wasent running the show. He could be the best diver god has ever produced for all I care, but he is still a prat.


I realy hope they sue him for deformation  


Mark Chase
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
Joined
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15,343 Posts
Imported post

[b said:
Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ Oct. 10 2003,13:23)]PS Dominic, I can't be arsed to argue just because you're bored at work. If you don't agree fine. Have a one sided conversation with yourself. And if you aren't DIR enough to subscribe then you don't know enough to debate DIR. I like to discuss things with people who know both sides of the argument, whatever that 'argument' is.

PPS Rich Pyle subscribes to Quest.
You know I have a sneeking suspision that Dominic knows more about DIR than most DIR wanabes. The problem with Quest is it is a bit American. Apart from that it's OK. I am with Dominic on this one thow. Whats the point of littl ole me arguing with GI3. Some of the worlds best divers have said he is wrong and he ignores them.

With reguard to Kevin Gurr
???

I would be very interested to see any post on this or any other forum where I have stated that his method is the one true method for diving. Mind you it would be prety dificult as he dives OC and CCR and varies his equipment to suit the dive.

Mind you if you would like to compare his work with GI3's you might be interested to know he invented the first Nitrox dive computer in 1993 and the first Trimix computer and the first CCR computer in 2000 (as used by Richard Pyle). He also planned and took part in ground breaking expaditions all over the world that would equal anything undertaken by GI3. And how does GI3 respond to this? He calls him a Stroke.    

About the only thing I have in common with diving like Kevin Gurr is the use of a bunjied wing and the VR3.

JJs books, Kevin Gurrs book and Bret Gilliams book are the three best diving books I own. That said I own several more but they are of little or no comparison.

I do however admit to haveing a hero in diving and that is Jacaous Causto.

Question: Why have the deaths stoped in WKPP?

Answer: Helium started to be comonly used in and arround the time that GI3 asumed controle of the WKPP.  

Prety simple realy.

Mark Chase
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
Joined
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15,343 Posts
Imported post

Let him go

He seems oblivious to the fact that no other DIR divers complaining about getting the roasting he alledgedly suffers on this site as a marter to the cause. Dispite what WL said I am not anti DIR but I do dislike GI3 intensly. I am also not anti Andy but I cant make him beleive that.

If you cahage your mind Andy I for one will welcome you back but dont expect me to let controversial posts go unchalanged coz it aint going to happen.

ATB

Mark Chase
 
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