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Ok, so I am slightly cautious at starting this topic for fear of:
a) Repeating a topic that has occurred earlier and I haven't seen.
b) Starting a DIR vs anything else slagging match....again.

All I am really curious about is what people's opinions are of what defines a STROKE. I presume (judging by reading other topics) that quite a few people on here have read George Irvine's "What is a STROKE" (if not then check here to understand what is going on!), but I'm curious as to how people interpret it, which (again judging by what I've seen on many topics) is quite negatively, whereas I think it should perhaps be construed more positively and how (I hope) it was intended to be construed.
My personal opinion is that, in its most basic form, what Irvine was trying to get at is that a STROKE is someone who is not prepared (in your opinion) for the dive they are about to undertake with you. In an exagerated example, it could be likened to someone with no technical or overhead experience wanting to undertake a dive with someone who is.
Ok, so that's a bit of an OTT example but that kind of thing. Of course it also comes down to basically what you are comfortable with, which explains the reference to gear config (which DOES NOT specify DIR) and is quite understandable. Whoever I am diving with I want to know that, if the worse was to happen, I could get them out of their gear easily, without having to think too much. And I would hope anyone diving with me would find the same. The last thing I want if my buddy is not breathing is to have to be searching beneath mounds of (perhaps uneccessary) gear for that last clip or strap thats preventing me releasing his/her SCUBA unit and getting him/her back onto the land or boat and administering CPR much more effectively and constructively than the in-water rescue breaths.

Anyway, I think I've explained myself badly, and I've rambled a bit, so apologies for that but the main thrust of my question is carried in the first couple of sentences!

TD
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
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<font color='#000F22'>The need for an in depth understanding of your buddies equipment is totaly overrated IMHO. When it gets to the point that your fiddiling with his her kit that much the diver is probably dead.

What is a stroke? a stroke is any one who does not conform to GI3's version of diving.

The system he set up worked in the team environment he designed it for. It was a very good system that unfortunatly got too big for it's boots and spilled over into a diving philosohpey bordering on fanatical.

The fact that most of the worlds top divers dont use their system seems to have escaped them.

Mark Chase
 

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<font color='#000F22'>
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ June 10 2003,22:50)]What is a stroke? a stroke is any one who does not conform to GI3's version of diving.
ahh so a stroke must be a proper diver then
 

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If Hobby were still here,  
 he'd have something to say about GI3 hi-jacking the use of the word "Stroke" (along with long hoses, manifolds, streamlining etc etc), which AFAIK was a euphemism for a W*nker ("stroke their own...") amongst Brit divers (who else!) in the old days.  

In DIR-land, if you have to ask then you probably are one.


The point is not to take any notice of it.  It doesn't matter, it shouldn't affect you, and all it's good for is endless excuses for typing cr*p in dive forums (i.e. this drivel!).

Take the bits that work for you and enjoy.
 

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Just not enough dive time.
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The need for an in depth understanding of your buddies equipment is totaly overrated IMHO. When it gets to the point that your fiddiling with his her kit that much the diver is probably dead.

What is a stroke? a stroke is any one who does not conform to GI3's version of diving.

The system he set up worked in the team environment he designed it for. It was a very good system that unfortunatly got too big for it's boots and spilled over into a diving philosohpey bordering on fanatical.

The fact that most of the worlds top divers dont use their system seems to have escaped them
Think I'd probably have to agree on the first point Mark, come to that the chances of reviving anyone from any depth are pretty remote anyway without a defrib if they have suffered cardiac arrest, which is likely given the amount of time it takes to bring it on following respiratory arrest. There have been cases, we all know, but they are few and far between.

Second point by definition must be most every other diver as only his team and devoted followers are 100% in-line with his views/rules, free country (even the US) so its their choice, bit derogatory though to call everyone else a Stroke I think.

Third point, he came from wreck diving to cave diving so designed an approach that was suitable to both, nothing particularly wrong in that Mark, thought you'd appreciate it being a wreckie (meant in the nicest was possible Old Chap).
But they do seem a bit fanatical, again their choice.

Fourth point - but what makes a top diver, is it a bit like a good landing? Survive the dive - must be a good diver?


All meant in a light hearted manner chaps.
Matt
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Allegedly
, George doesn't care about how anyone else dives, which would be fair enough if it wan't for an obvious inability to respect the freedom of choice of said others to go about their diving business in peace. I don't think there is anything "bit" like about the derogative aspect of the word "stroke", especially as it is frequently followed by the expression "shit" (I make no apologies for swearing as this is a direct quote from his nibs).

I'm sure I'm not the only one bored with George and his rantings so I am going to endeavour to make this the last time I get embroiled in a GI3/DIR/GUE debate because as far as I am concerned the intolerant ravings of some random American facist gobshite (apprently that's not a swear word as I've just heard it used on daytime national radio) has got bog all to do with UK diving.

If any of our DIR/GUE afficionados want to take issue with me on that statement then please do it off-line.

Perhaps if we all agree to ignore him he might go away....


Anyhoo... now for something which is related to UK diving, just received this from our membership secretary:
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Cardiff Medical Centre is opening the most modem 14 man Hyperbaric centre in the UK based at Cardiff, Next to BUPA hospital, At a cost of £600,000. hyperlink

The facility is a Category One Chamber with all the medical facilities you would find in an A&E Hospital Department. We will have a 24hr doctor on call in case of a diving emergency there are also doctors on site during normal times.

Currently all divers who require medical treatment are
sent to Plymouth by helicopter taking up to 55 minutes flying time, we at  Cardiff Medical Centre can take divers who are in need of care of a hyperbaric doctor. It is only 13 minutes from the new dive centre in Chepstow, 18 minutes from the Pembrokeshire coast, We also have the
only  D.A.R.T DIVER ATTENDANT RECOMPRESSION TRANSPORTABLE chamber in the UK
this is a very light 2 man chamber which can be used by road or air ambulance
 
The centre will be open from 10 July 2003 to find out more please visit www.cardiffmedicalcentre.com
Duty Hyperbaric Physician Number 07967 198495 please use this number only for a diving medical emergency or contact 999 and ask for the Coastguard.
 
Please note:
Divers are treated under the NHS system
Patients can be admitted by any relevant consultant within the NHS
Any diver that requires hyperbaric treatment can be sent to:
Cardiff Medical Centre (Open 10 July 2003) enquiry number 0845 045 0845  
DDRC Plymouth
London hyperbaric Centre
Liverpool hyperbaric Centre

Cardiff Medical Centre - Classification of Decompression Sickness
In addition to the "bends", the effects of "Caisson disease" have several other descriptive terms. The "chokes", "staggers" and "niggles". These re discussed below.
The label 'decompression sickness' (DCS) was introduced in place of "Caisson disease". Decompression sickness can be classified as either Type 1 or Type 2. The different classification reflects the effect, and therefore the severity, of the condition. Diagnosing DCS as one (or
both) of just two categories does not enable proper identification or discrimination. However, for the sake of completeness, the two types
are described here.
Type 1 DCS can occur when bubbles affect the tissues around skeletal joints. Symptoms usually include unilateral (on one side of the body) discomfort or pain in one or more joints. The areas most often affected are the knees, elbows and shoulders.  Decompression sickness might also present as a skin (cutaneous)
disorder.
Nitrogen bubbles can cause mottling, lumps or a rash. "Skin bends", as they are colloquially termed, are more common during hyperbaric chamber 'dives' and when diving using a dry suit. Although not usually in themselves serious, skin symptoms may indicate the presence of problems elsewhere.

A particularly serious cutaneous sign of DCS is 'cutis marmorata' marbling, in which an area of skin becomes pale with dark mottling. This is associated with considerable development of inert gas bubbles within the body.
If left untreated, Type 1 DCS may progress to Type 2.
Type 2 decompression sickness reflects involvement of the Central Nervous System (CNS) and / or the cardio-respiratory system. More than half of those diagnosed with DCS will be classified as Type 2.Cerebral symptoms arise from interruption of the blood supply to the main part of the
brain, and include confusion, reduced mental function and unconsciousness. Involvement of the cerebellum may lead to tremors, loss of balance ("staggers") and a lack of co-ordination (ataxia). Balance may also be
affected by damage to the vestibular part of the inner ear.
Spinal DCS may present as back pain, paresthesia (pins and needles), paralysis and loss of urinary sphincter control - resulting in either incontinence or retention.

As discussed already, the formation of small inert gas bubbles does not necessarily lead to the development of DCS. Likewise, when bubbles become trapped in the tiny blood vessels around the lungs' alveoli (air sacs), problems do not always arise. In fact, it is thought that their accumulation in this area may increase the rate that the gas is
excreted from the body (Edmonds et al, 1993). However, if too many bubbles collect, breathing will become adversely affected ("chokes"). Symptoms include breathlessness, tachypnoea (increase in breathing rate), chest pain
and coughing. Although symptoms may resolve, this should be regarded as a life-threatening condition as it may progress to fatal respiratory collapse.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Chee-az
Steve
 

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I`ve got to agree with my fellow Steve (W). I used to get wound up about George and his self opionated crap. That was until a friend of mine, who is an accomplished cave diver, but thankfully not a DIR bore, used his George Irvine inspired rig (backplate and continuous length of harnness) on a RIB dive off the Manacles. We had a good laugh watching him trying to get it off to hand it up to the boat after the dive had finished. I don`t know if it was exactly to Georges` specifications, if it was, then it is entirely unsuited to British diving conditions. What works for a Florida cave diver may not work for a Brit RIB diver.

He has also slagged of the Weezle undersuit. I wonder how much cold water diving he does ?  Compared with a northern European freshwater site in winter, the waters of the southeastern US are never cold, despite some frequent divers using dry suits in winter.

He goes on to slag off the Inspiration rebreather, probably because he sells a rival make.

However, if you want a really good laugh, look at his girlfriends web-site. I don`t know the address, but Bren Tierney does.

SL1
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Steve L. @ June 11 2003,16:38)]I`ve got to agree with my fellow Steve (W). I used to get wound up about George and his self opionated crap. That was until a friend of mine, who is an accomplished cave diver, but thankfully not a DIR bore, used his George Irvine inspired rig (backplate and continuous length of harnness) on a RIB dive off the Manacles. We had a good laugh watching him trying to get it off to hand it up to the boat after the dive had finished. I don`t know if it was exactly to Georges` specifications, if it was, then it is entirely unsuited to British diving conditions. What works for a Florida cave diver may not work for a Brit RIB diver.
Probably had it set up wrong then.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]

He has also slagged of the Weezle undersuit. I wonder how much cold water diving he does ?  Compared with a northern European freshwater site in winter, the waters of the southeastern US are never cold, despite some frequent divers using dry suits in winter.
Yeah and I slag off the Weezle as well and I have been known to dip my toe in some chilly water.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
He goes on to slag off the Inspiration rebreather, probably because he sells a rival make.
He doesn't sell rebreathers he sells scooters.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
However, if you want a really good laugh, look at his girlfriends web-site. I don`t know the address, but Bren Tierney does.

SL1
No-one on this list has called anyone a Stroke so why does it matter.

Large numbers of people seem to dislike everything GI says so why spend so much time and energy talking about him.

If someone wants to know how/why DIR does something, I (and others I'm sure) are more than happy to chuck in our thoughts but everyones rantings about GI are pointless.

He's not here. He doesn't care what you think. Why care what he thinks.

If you don't like what he has to say, ignore him.

Rob.
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Lets get back to stuff  relevant to UK diving if we can hmmm ...


I'm planning to be at Abbs this weekend, probably going up Friday and camping that night, diving saturday, may or may not stay over on the Saturday night, dunno.

If anyone else is planning to be at Abbs gimme a shout and we can have an S.I. natter

Chee-az
Steve
 

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Any one read "The Last Dive"?

I found it an incredible tale of peole doing stupid things outside their "safety zone" set in the background of American cave diving and Deep Wreck Diving, sadly a true tale, if you get chance read it, it will open your eyes to a lot of issues.

Stilll believe a good diver is safe, ie one who has trained with good people, knows his limits will help on all aspects of a dive and finally recognises, it isn`t whimpy not to go in, if you do not feel 110%

Shiney
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Never read it, TBH, the only non-practical dive reading (as opposed to training manuals and related information) which would have any appeal for me would be Cousteau's "Silent World". Tried reading "Stars under the Sea" but didn't find it particularly compelling, ok for the 'plane though .

Chee-z
steve
 

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In view of some of the responses here, you`ve got to hand it to George, he`s got an ego the size of an elephant.
You could compare him with Mohammed Ali (I`m the greatest). He openly stated that the reason he gobbed it off was to get publicity. George has certainly got our attention.

If he sets himself up as he does, then he, and his advocates must be prepared to take the knocks. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that dos`nt mean you have to slap down everyone elses.

I`ve never met the bloke, and judging from his attitude I hope I never do.  

SL1
 

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<font color='#000F22'>Ahhh Mr Stevie,

Abbs this w/e you say .... have you booked the boat? Room for a small one?(ish).

I need a gentle introduction back into the delights of UK diving after my recent Indonesian sojourn.

Give us a bell or email matey - the weather's looking decidely favourable.
 

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I read The Last Dive while i was on a diving holiday.

to be honest, i found it a pretty depressing book. it's a fascinating read, but the high body count just left me saddened that so many people had died and annoyed in the way some of them had died.

it's certainly well worth reading, but it will probably leave you with as many questions as answers.

still, it's a lot better than neutral bouyancy.
 

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Stevie W, a quick thank you for re-introducing that most fantastic word "gobshite" back into my life, gave me a fleeting pang for me northern roots that did  
 
I plan to make much use of it in future, whenever at all applicable, and occasionally when not - now let's see, what meetings do I have this afternoon....  
 
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