YD Scuba Diving Forums banner
1 - 20 of 65 Posts

·
bangladessional dive professional
Joined
·
133 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm going to finish off my IDC over the summer and am planning on getting a wing.

Does anyone here use a wing for teaching, and if so, would you recommend it, or would you suggest a jacket is a better way to go?


thanks

Guy
 

·
Very Senior Member
Joined
·
1,908 Posts
I'm going to finish off my IDC over the summer and am planning on getting a wing.

Does anyone here use a wing for teaching, and if so, would you recommend it, or would you suggest a jacket is a better way to go?


thanks

Guy
Talk to Nina at Underwater Explorers. They do all instruction in wings - they even had a trydive session in wings yesterday.
 

·
Atomic Blonde and Midjit Idjit
Joined
·
16,469 Posts
Not being an instructor I am perhaps not qualified to have an opinion on this, however, I was always told you should teach - or in my case as a DM, assist - using standard equipment.

This aside, if someone had dispelled the 'tekkie' myth attached to wings, backplates and harnesses when I started diving, and let me try one, it would have saved me much expense in a trial and error of several different BCs before settling on my much-loved BP and harness :)

Perhaps it will also discourage newbies from 'Christmas tree syndrome', as you have to think carefully about what you really need for diving, instead of attaching every new gadget and dangly that you can just because you have a d-ring to clip it on :D

Hxxx
 

·
Life is rushing past!
Joined
·
1,206 Posts
As far as I'm aware you have to teach the open water course in equipment similar to what the students are wearing eg, single tank and bc, mainly because you should be able to demonstrate kit removal ok you don't do that on the open water portion of the course only confined.

After that you can do the other courses on, say twins and wing, as there is no demonstrations to do and if it's a rescue course they need to be able to deal with divers wearing different kit configurations, aslong as you have sufficient open circuit bail out you are ok.

HTH
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,880 Posts
I'm going to finish off my IDC over the summer and am planning on getting a wing.

Does anyone here use a wing for teaching, and if so, would you recommend it, or would you suggest a jacket is a better way to go?
So - the answer to your question, like most questions in life, is "it depends". It depends on you and your students.

So much of what we learn comes from what we see, and when learning we copy from others. It is therefore helpful for a student to have an instructor in similar kit to themselves.

Is a wing safe for teaching - yes of course it is. However, if you are only just looking to get a wing now, are you going to be comfortable and confident enough with it to give your student your full attention when teaching?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,795 Posts
Not being an instructor I am perhaps not qualified to have an opinion on this, however, I was always told you should teach - or in my case as a DM, assist - using standard equipment.

Hxxx
The trouble with this statement is what is 'standard equipment'? If this means a jacket style BC, single 1st stage with 2 regs, then it is a circular argument as you can never change the standard.

Adrian
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,457 Posts
I use a wing and have never had a problem teaching in it. I point out the differences between a wing and BC to my students but basic principles of bouyancy control and associated skills such as rescue can be taught with either or both. I seem to remeber the same question being asked when those new fangled 'stab jackets' started appearing. Some people insisted that students should wear ABLJs (like an inflatable bog seat, ask a grown up if you haven't seen one...) because that's how they learnt. Equipment is always evolving and I believe it's healthy for students to see a variety of it used to teach a particular set of skills.
 

·
Guru
Joined
·
7,112 Posts
I do a fair amount of my teaching in a wing. Its very difficult to demonstrate remove and replace scuba unit on the surface and on the bottom in a wing during confined water sessions however. I think it's important to be able to show students the various different options out there including things like DIN and A clamp regs, steel and Ali tanks etc and I see introducing a wing as part of that broad education. Where a competent Divemaster is available to show the scuba unit skills, I'll use them to demo it in a BCD, if not I just use a BCD myself - it's no big deal. If you're expecting to do a fair amount of teaching without certified asssistants around then you're gonna need a BCD. HTH :)
 

·
Proud to be "small minded" in the face of credulit
Joined
·
2,910 Posts
I used to teach in open water in a wing. PADI International people were often teaching their office staff at the same time and place. I had converstations with them about the wing/long hose thing and there were no problems. Of course, a snorkel is silly with a Hog-rigged long hose, but PADI people were always happy with the folding snorkel I carried in my pocket.

Regards,

Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,795 Posts
I do a fair amount of my teaching in a wing. Its very difficult to demonstrate remove and replace scuba unit on the surface and on the bottom in a wing during confined water sessions however. I think it's important to be able to show students the various different options out there including things like DIN and A clamp regs, steel and Ali tanks etc and I see introducing a wing as part of that broad education. Where a competent Divemaster is available to show the scuba unit skills, I'll use them to demo it in a BCD, if not I just use a BCD myself - it's no big deal. If you're expecting to do a fair amount of teaching without certified asssistants around then you're gonna need a BCD. HTH :)
Is that because you have a one piece harness Howard? Not something usually found on a jacket BCD.

Adrian

PS I thought you dive gods were supposed to find kit removal easy in a one piece harness? :D
 

·
bangladessional dive professional
Joined
·
133 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
thanks for all the responses.

i should probably clarify a few things - the wing im looking at is teh apeks wtx with the wtx harness - so its not really a backplate a wing - more like a traditional harness with a wing bolted on the back.

Also, ive got about 5 weeks of diving before i carry on the idc, plenty of time to become familiar with new equipment.

what i thought may be problems with a wing were being pitched forward on the surface, and trying to demonstrate the hover in the 'buddah' position without rolling forward.

any more advice???

thanks
Guy
 

·
Guru
Joined
·
7,112 Posts
You'd be fine with one of those mate - it's got pinch clips - just brief the skill on the surface thoroughly and explain any differences with real students. You may wish to consider whether on an IDC and an IE whether task loading your fellow candidates with something unfamiliar is really fair? Maybe borrow a BCD for that perhaps? You are only going for the 32lb wing arencha?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,363 Posts
I believe you can deomonstrate the hover in any orientation you choose. I wasn't doing any of that cack when I did my DM skills, my reasoning was that I wanted to make it as easy for students as possible, and them trying to copy me doing that isn't going to be easy, nor easy to control as an exercise.

But I'd still be in a standard BCD for an IDC and IE. Almost regardless of what you plan on doing afterwards. You don't need the additional pressure of a new bit of kit for you or anyone else. You may also find yourself with an examiner who isn't a big fan, might as well win any points with them that you can. And having a different bit of kit and having to change a load of things isn't necessarily going to be well received.

Digs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,434 Posts
I know a few people teaching in a wing, one piece harness and so on. PADIs wordin to them was its fine as long as you can justify your kit selection which to me sounded like (its ok but if it goes tits up you could be on your own).

A few i know teach BCD in confined (where you demo) and wing for open water. Its not against standards.

The weight belt remove/replace could be complicated with it under a crotch strap as well. Don/ditch i find easier with a one piece harness now ive got used to it than my old floppy straps. I could just be weird though.
Hover demo doesn't to my knowledge HAVE to be in the buddah position and weight placement can help with that anyway.
PADI as far as im aware you can teach long hose as a perfectly acceptable method for out-of-air. (differs to BSAC where youre specifically told you cannot teach primary donation).

A lot may depend on your boss - some will let you use it without issue. Some will dictate you cant use that cant at all and must use a BCD/normal regs etc.

For IDC/IE we were told to use a normal BCD and short hose regs. Out of 6 of us in the group that meant 4 of us borrowing kit.
The course director was also a DSAT and ex TDI instructor who said after qualification he wouldn't object to either being used but for the sake of the IDC/IE try to stick to standard equipment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,076 Posts
I'd echo the above.

I do open water teaching with a wing, but it is attached to an IQ harness, so isn't "pure." lol

Confined water - BCD, simply because kit removal and replacement is loads easier.

Took the BCD on the IDC as well for that reason. Remember, the IE is very much a team based event, so you need to make it as easy as possible for everyone involved.
 

·
Guru
Joined
·
7,112 Posts
As many of you know - it doesn't get much more "wing and long hose" than me.

I think it's worth bearing in mind here that the student is our boss and as such are we really doing everything we can to facilitate their learning and make the whole experience as easy and pleasant as possible? When they are already stressed and task loaded anyway, do they really need us explaining extra convolutions and deviations from standard recreational kit?

I would love to see everyone learning in a wing and long hose - but for the vast majority of people who just want to do a bit of safe, fun warm-water holiday diving periodically - they are never going to use this configuration in a million years.

Whenever I put a wing on in a teaching environment I try to ask myself whether this is me just trying to look trick and massage my own ego or whether it's in the best interests of the student.

At higher levels of continuing education when people have more capacity and curiosity - I think its a completely different ball game
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,363 Posts
As many of you know - it doesn't get much more "wing and long hose" than me.

I think it's worth bearing in mind here that the student is our boss and as such are we really doing everything we can to facilitate their learning and make the whole experience as easy and pleasant as possible? When they are already stressed and task loaded anyway, do they really need us explaining extra convolutions and deviations from standard recreational kit?

I would love to see everyone learning in a wing and long hose - but for the vast majority of people who just want to do a bit of safe, fun warm-water holiday diving periodically - they are never going to use this configuration in a million years.

Whenever I put a wing on in a teaching environment I try to ask myself whether this is me just trying to look trick and massage my own ego or whether it's in the best interests of the student.

At higher levels of continuing education when people have more capacity and curiosity - I think its a completely different ball game
So what you're saying is a load of stroke shit is ok on an OW course? ;) I don't know. I think the PKPP would have a lot to say about that. That's the Pool Karst Plain Project, in case you'd not been to the team briefing. You can die in 2" of water, apparently, though I don't actually think anyone ever has.

Digs.
 

·
Guru
Joined
·
7,112 Posts
I'm dying for your 2" again Honeypumpkin :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,036 Posts
I know 2 BSAC Instructors on here who teach in wings and the students learn in wings. There may be more.

So it would seem to be perfectly doable from that point of view.

It also avoids the expense for the student of discovering that they have a jacket style BC which they no longer need / require when they move onwards say to twins (sometimes quite soon after OW).

Just wish more people would have the opportunity to experience wings.

I'm actually quite surprised at how many Instructors have never even tried a wing themselves. That does seem strange to me tbh.

.
 

·
Atomic Blonde and Midjit Idjit
Joined
·
16,469 Posts
The trouble with this statement is what is 'standard equipment'? If this means a jacket style BC, single 1st stage with 2 regs, then it is a circular argument as you can never change the standard.

Adrian
Exactly. It is what I was told, not what I now believe :)

I was taught that the set up you mention is 'standard' when, the more I dive with other people with experience and with those from other 'schools' of training, the more I realise that there is no 'given' standard at all.

When doing my RD training I had just as much trouble extricating someone from an old style Buddy jacket without pinch clips as I probably would have getting someone out of a single piece harness.

I would love to see everyone learning in a wing and long hose - but for the vast majority of people who just want to do a bit of safe, fun warm-water holiday diving periodically - they are never going to use this configuration in a million years.

It's a shame, looking in retrospect at my own training, that long hoses aren't being introduced more readily because the difficulty in trying to breathe off someone's octo when you are practically cheek by cheek with the donor makes the situation far more stressfull.

At higher levels of continuing education when people have more capacity and curiosity - I think its a completely different ball game
However, I agree with the point of keep it simple and straightforward for OW students.
 
1 - 20 of 65 Posts
Top