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A Moderate from 04/01/07-24/12/12
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I read posts on here and other fora about the way people have developed their own diving system.

SSI have 4 parts to their teaching philosphy, Knowledge, Skills, Equipment and Experience, GUE have 3 Education, Experience & Equipment yet all we ever seem to talk about is the Equipment.

Generally people start with the standard Recreational Agency recommendation of a BCD, single tank, Regs, mask, fins which, although advised to go for comfort and fit, they trust that judgement to the Dive Store at that stage and tend to choose based on colour :) Brand awareness is pretty low at that time.

As their diving develops, they see things that other people have and think ooh I'd like that, either they think it's a good idea, or they have an experience which makes them think their current approach needs changing or they are just greedy and want something shiney and new, normally associated with the adoption of some sort of brand loyalty.

This leads to a plethora of kit configurations and of each one the owner feels quite passionate.....and will defend it because of how they went about building the config because there is a lot of the person invested in its creation. This is great for Internet fora because people will argue endlessly about why their individual choice is better than the other person's individual choice.

But the arguments are generally about equipment only e.g. inverts vs uprights, indies vs manifolded, crack bottle dSMBs vs oral/suit inflate dSMBs, reels vs spools and so it goes on.

Rarely do people discuss how the equipment integtrates with the other parts of the system they have developed .... e.g. buddy checks or planning, or in water positioning etc etc.

I am very supportive of the GUE approach to diving and dive training where these things (Equipment and procedures) go hand in hand to formulate a complete diving "system".

I asked a question a while ago what people liked about DIR and generally the responses were about the kit config and equipmen choices. It strikes me that considering individual elements could be missing the bigger picture of the value of a complete diving system.

What do others think?

Ok....as Mrs Merton would say.... "Let's have a heated debate...."

Mal
 

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rEvolutionary Diving
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Yeah right, you want a ruck. Well read the many threads just like this one will be.

I am very supportive of the GUE approach to diving and dive training where these things (Equipment and procedures) go hand in hand to formulate a complete diving "system".

I asked a question a while ago what people liked about DIR and generally the responses were about the kit config and equipmen choices. It strikes me that considering individual elements could be missing the bigger picture of the value of a complete diving system.
Good for you! you found something you like. I'm pretty sure that we don't all drive the same car though. We are all different. However if halcyon sold cars eh?
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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Buddy checks? :embarassed: Come, come, you talk greasily; your lips grow foul. :):):)
Only joking - Shakespearean Insulter
I've got to stop reading that Shakespearean insulter.:) SWMBO was not too impressed when I told her what I was going to do to her oddsbodkins with my codpiece! :)

You are right. IMO, about the kit progression for quite a few divers but for the most part there is little difference? Well, apart from me and my gas switch and FFM and anything to be different attitude? :)


The aim of every diver is to be comfortable and as safe as possible ........... regardless of the lengths or depths under water?
 

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Well you are going in the right direction, but where we end up is often
the real problem.

Imagine two groups DIR and RID.

Both groups train in 3's in teams and both have perfected a configeration
and technique that suits them. The result is two teams of very good A1
divers.

So who is better DIR or RID?

Awnser = Neither.

As long as the DIR team dives together and the RID team dives together,
they are both as good and as safe as each other. No point in saying that
one bit of kit, routing or training is wrong, because in the other groups
enviroment it has plainly been prooven to be ok.
 

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GUE Instructor
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I'd seperate DIR and GUE for a start.

I think DIR has a lot to offer (but it's not the be-all and end-all), but I have mixed feelings about GUE. Sometimes I think they are a bunch of nepotic con-artists running the best laid out execution of a marketing ploy since Noah started selling rain macs. On the other hand, sometimes I think they are just a disorganised rabble who struggle to deal with anything that exists outside Florida, but mean well.

so my opinions vary.

However, TDi teach teamwork, communication and safety. IANTD do the same. PADI teach buddy skills. So do BSAC. DIR doesn't have the monopoly on anything. DIR divers go on and on about having to adopt the entire system, and I'm aware I'm one of those divers, but the truth is that's only a defence of DIR - The BSAC system covers just about every scenario, and has a hell of a lot more divers following it.

So, I remain quite pleased I've found a system for me, but I'm aware that it's probably got more to do with suiting my personality than it anything else.

I'm not sure about the onlu discussing kit bit Mal, I spend quite a lot of time nattering to YDers about how minimum gas works, ratio deco, the way we communicate etc. People are either interested, in which case I'll talk about it, or they are not, in which case I'll just shut uyp and let them get on with their thing. We've just had a belter of a weekend in Plymouth off endevour, and it was all the better for a complete absence of "give a shit" about what people were diving, or how they were doing it. Once WarmwaterDiver and Milldog realised I wasn't going to rise to the bait, that it :D
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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23,946 Posts
I'd seperate DIR and GUE for a start.

I think DIR has a lot to offer (but it's not the be-all and end-all), but I have mixed feelings about GUE. Sometimes I think they are a bunch of nepotic con-artists running the best laid out execution of a marketing ploy since Noah started selling rain macs. On the other hand, sometimes I think they are just a disorganised rabble who struggle to deal with anything that exists outside Florida, but mean well.

so my opinions vary.

However, TDi teach teamwork, communication and safety. IANTD do the same. PADI teach buddy skills. So do BSAC. DIR doesn't have the monopoly on anything. DIR divers go on and on about having to adopt the entire system, and I'm aware I'm one of those divers, but the truth is that's only a defence of DIR - The BSAC system covers just about every scenario, and has a hell of a lot more divers following it.

So, I remain quite pleased I've found a system for me, but I'm aware that it's probably got more to do with suiting my personality than it anything else.

I'm not sure about the onlu discussing kit bit Mal, I spend quite a lot of time nattering to YDers about how minimum gas works, ratio deco, the way we communicate etc. People are either interested, in which case I'll talk about it, or they are not, in which case I'll just shut uyp and let them get on with their thing. We've just had a belter of a weekend in Plymouth off endevour, and it was all the better for a complete absence of "give a shit" about what people were diving, or how they were doing it. Once WarmwaterDiver and Milldog realised I wasn't going to rise to the bait, that it :D
Thou fobbing crook-pated malcontent!

Respect to Shakespear! :teeth: :teeth: :teeth:

What's this minimum gas malarky then? Is it as obvious as it sounds ............... you came back with the minimum amount of gas possible hence ensuring the longest possible dive??

:angel: :teeth:
 

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All hail the mighty ZOM
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26,851 Posts
I think everyone should stop wearing twin 12's for a 10m bimble, stop wearing a single 15 for a 50m bimble and use the kit that's appropriate for the dive.

Oh and actually go and get wet rather than type about it.
 

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A VS Cash Cow
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17,832 Posts
there is no complete diving system nor will there ever be a complete system, its all great until you strap a diver into the kit.

The whole kit thing for me is a non arguement, a blobs a blob fill it somehow with something and up it goes. I understand and agree with the GUE philospohy on team diving and buddy awareness and how its stressed. The rest of it for me is overkill unless your doing 10 hours or more in a cave, lets be honest does it really make a fecking difference where a torch/knife is placed, not really in the great scheme of things.

i'd prefer a good clued up buddy i know to a clone i don't.
 

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A Moderate from 04/01/07-24/12/12
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11,804 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Yeah right, you want a ruck. Well read the many threads just like this one will be.



Good for you! you found something you like. I'm pretty sure that we don't all drive the same car though. We are all different. However if halcyon sold cars eh?
:D Ok the heated debate bit was tongue-in-cheek....However your analogy sort of describes what I am thinking .... a car is sold as a complete system where the brakes are in proportion to the engine capacity and the fuel tank is in proportion to the fuel economy etc etc.

It's the system bit which is interesting me where the procedures and equipment are tightly linked.

I am not judging how others dive but interested in why the systemic approach of kit and procedures does not feature highly.

Mal
 

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Jonah
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7,366 Posts
.. a car is sold as a complete system where the brakes are in proportion to the engine capacity and the fuel tank is in proportion to the fuel economy etc etc.

It's the system bit which is interesting me where the procedures and equipment are tightly linked.

I am not judging how others dive but interested in why the systemic approach of kit and procedures does not feature highly.

Mal
Because most people drive cars that are not as perfectly optimised as they could be, but still get them from A to B successfully?
 

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A Moderate from 04/01/07-24/12/12
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11,804 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
However, TDi teach teamwork, communication and safety. IANTD do the same. PADI teach buddy skills. So do BSAC. DIR doesn't have the monopoly on anything. DIR divers go on and on about having to adopt the entire system, and I'm aware I'm one of those divers, but the truth is that's only a defence of DIR - The BSAC system covers just about every scenario, and has a hell of a lot more divers following it.
I wasn't wanted to denigrate or big up any particular agency specifically but to question the "systemic" approach of kit and procedures. I realise that some instructors are capable of delivering systemic advice .... based on their own self selection of equipment .... pretty much how DIR and GUE started, for instance.

It's just that when "we" i.e. the YD massif, discuss things it seems to be about kit and not procedures.

Mal
 

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I think everyone should stop wearing twin 12's for a 10m bimble, stop wearing a single 15 for a 50m bimble and use the kit that's appropriate for the dive.
If I did a good mix of both types of diving, I'd do just this. But as I do very little 10m bimbles, I'll make do with taking my twin 12s in when I do.

If money was no object, I'd have a nice little single tank set-up - probably.
 

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I am not judging how others dive but interested in why the systemic approach of kit and procedures does not feature highly.

Mal
Perhaps because it really doesn't matter to a rather large amount of divers Mal.

The kit works. Most divers are not pushing kit to the limits, and it rarely fails. Incident reports would appear to indicate it is the diver and the decisions they make that are the weak link. They will probably make the same decisions no matter what wing/reg/cylinder setup they use. They would screw up with any system of kit.

To take the car analogy. The car is only 95% of the system. Put a prat behind the wheel and you have a dangerous system.

You do have to judge the diver, not the kit.

Adrian
 

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Being a relative new-comer, heres my view.

The DIR/GUE way of setting your kit up appears to me to be good there is nothing dangling about and looking at it, it is easy to see what is where. Ive dived with buddys wearing similar set ups and ive also dived with buddys who have things hanging everywhere. regs all over the place or tucked into bc pockets. I'd rather dive with someone whos kit is set up similar to mine as it would be instinct to know what is where.

What would happen if one of us had an OOA situation, as part of my buddy check i say just take my reg outta my mouth, simple as that. If i have to go hunting for a spare reg from my buddy im pretty sure it would end up me pulling his/hers outta their mouth, that then raises a problem with them having to find there spare reg,and possibly pulling the one in my mouth out again.

However I also think use what is suitable for the type of diving you are doing as previously said whats the point lugging twin 12's for a 10m shore dive, when it can be done just as easily on a single tank and wing. I guess it is all horses for courses and down to indivdual preference as to how someone sets there kit up. If a proper full buddy check is carried out prior to diving surely that should suffice.
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
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I read posts on here and other fora about the way people have developed their own diving system.

SSI have 4 parts to their teaching philosphy, Knowledge, Skills, Equipment and Experience, GUE have 3 Education, Experience & Equipment yet all we ever seem to talk about is the Equipment.

Generally people start with the standard Recreational Agency recommendation of a BCD, single tank, Regs, mask, fins which, although advised to go for comfort and fit, they trust that judgement to the Dive Store at that stage and tend to choose based on colour :) Brand awareness is pretty low at that time.

As their diving develops, they see things that other people have and think ooh I'd like that, either they think it's a good idea, or they have an experience which makes them think their current approach needs changing or they are just greedy and want something shiney and new, normally associated with the adoption of some sort of brand loyalty.

This leads to a plethora of kit configurations and of each one the owner feels quite passionate.....and will defend it because of how they went about building the config because there is a lot of the person invested in its creation. This is great for Internet fora because people will argue endlessly about why their individual choice is better than the other person's individual choice.

But the arguments are generally about equipment only e.g. inverts vs uprights, indies vs manifolded, crack bottle dSMBs vs oral/suit inflate dSMBs, reels vs spools and so it goes on.

Rarely do people discuss how the equipment integtrates with the other parts of the system they have developed .... e.g. buddy checks or planning, or in water positioning etc etc.

I am very supportive of the GUE approach to diving and dive training where these things (Equipment and procedures) go hand in hand to formulate a complete diving "system".

I asked a question a while ago what people liked about DIR and generally the responses were about the kit config and equipmen choices. It strikes me that considering individual elements could be missing the bigger picture of the value of a complete diving system.

What do others think?

Ok....as Mrs Merton would say.... "Let's have a heated debate...."

Mal

Some of us / most of us started life in diving with a single a jacket BCD multi console compass and possibly a computer.

Then as our diving progressed we added kit and experimented with it making 100's of mistakes but having fun developing our interpretation of doing it right.

Experience further hones the kit and configuration and to this day I am still fiddling with the best way to do this or mount that etc.

Its fun.

On the more serious side, experience of problems and difficulties makes us adapt safety aspects of how we dive and how we use and configure our equipment. If the progression through diving is steady then this is rarely dangerous.

This side is very interesting some time challenging and again fun.


The GUE / DIR system takes away all of the learning curve it takes away all choice and provides a virtually standard one size fits all rig and then builds a predetermined set of standards around the rig to make it work. (or vice versa depending on your view)

This removes a risk element and the standardization makes for very simple execution of teem and expedition type dives. In its self this is perfectly valid. The system on its own wont work the kit configuration without the support of the system is less than ideal / wont work. Separating the configuration from the system is therefore not possible.

To some divers the one size fits all idea is attractive, having an instant off the shelf "tec rig" is attractive. For other divers (like me) the standardization of equipment and diving skills is attractive and for a very small group the ability to organize expeditions using the system is almost essential.

All perfectly valid reasons in my book.

Just for God's sake don't say its the only / best way, as this is obviously rubbish.

As for integration our own systems into our own kit configuration? well this happens all the time in buddy pairs. The problem is dive with a new buddy and the system fails or is at least marginalized. Not a problem with GUE divers, they can dive their normal system with any GUE diver in the world. A remarkable achievement and one they are rightly proud of.

As I have always said get a proper CCR in GUE and ill sign up tomorrow. On the other hand i am glad i didn't miss the fun of developing my own rig.

ATB

Mark Chase
 
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I think everyone should stop wearing twin 12's for a 10m bimble, stop wearing a single 15 for a 50m bimble and use the kit that's appropriate for the dive.

Oh and actually go and get wet rather than type about it.
If I did a good mix of both types of diving, I'd do just this. But as I do very little 10m bimbles, I'll make do with taking my twin 12s in when I do.

If money was no object, I'd have a nice little single tank set-up - probably.
Exactly what I was thinking. Using specific kit for specific dives relies on you having the kit available. I just did a weekend's diving in the 35m range with twin 16's and an Ali80 bottom stage. Why? Because that is what was available. Frankly, it was a pain in the arse and I hope not to have to do it again!

Cheers/Nic
 

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I think everyone should stop wearing twin 12's for a 10m bimble, stop wearing a single 15 for a 50m bimble and use the kit that's appropriate for the dive.
Why aren't twin 12's appropriate for a 10m bimble?

Personally I'd rather use the exact same basic kit set up for ALL of my dives, this will ensure that my instinctive reactions for an emergency are always correct.

As for the holistic system, well, my diving has grown with me and works for me. My diving is set up to be solo and then if I dive with someone else, that's fine, if they decide not to drop in, I go alone - and that's fine too. My kit, my style and the dives I do might not work for someone else and that is the point - What works, works.

If it works for you, dive it.

Juz
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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Why aren't twin 12's appropriate for a 10m bimble?
Cos the tide'll 'ave gone out and I'd be left flat on the sand! :)

Personally I'd rather use the exact same basic kit set up for ALL of my dives,
Yes but you've got a CCR!

this will ensure that my instinctive reactions for an emergency are always correct.
Mine are always the same ..... "aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh" accompanied by much waving of arms.

Please don't ever ust the H word agin!


:teeth:
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
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I am not judging how others dive but interested in why the systemic approach of kit and procedures does not feature highly.

Mal

You're not comparing apples with apples. My gas diving group have VERY strict procedures and elements of standardized kit that are essential to those procedures. We have to to minimize the dangers of the diving we do.

Every one on the boat will have:

Line laying equipment and skills
Strobes
Marker clips with identification
Yellow SMBs

Three of the teams on the boat will have specific tasks which it is essential for them to perform correctly for the system to work.

Screw up and you will drop to the bottom of, or off the end of the invite list.

GUEs systems are designed to allow this sort of diving to work. OK you use it for max 30m bimble dives where its not particularly necessary, but you could use your systems on a 5 hour push dive as well.

Its like your point on twinsets and 10m dives. Its overkill, but its good practice.


ATB

Mark Chase
 

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Just for God's sake don't say its the only / best way, as this is obviously rubbish.
Absoluteley.

What really get's me is the assertion that because of a good safety record
that system must be the best.

You could pick almost any standard, from any agency, drill it till you could
do it in your sleep and claim such a safety record.
 
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