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Mark,

That makes me twitch just reading it.  Excellent report though.  I think that a few of those who have commented need to step back a moment and think about what they would have done.  Especially thoughtprovoking for me was your situation of removing the last strobe to then see diver's bubbles?  Would the detractors have ignored the bubbles or risked blowing even their plus 5 plan to see if there was a problem?  

It would be interesting to see how others would feel they would have coped with that situation, bearing in mind they are in the fortunate position of being able to consider at length from their keyboard.

Having said all that, after alot of planning from you I can tell that it didn't go the way that you might have expected and i hope the "team" learns from the experience and it is smooth as you like next time!

Cheers

Lou
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Lou @ Aug. 26 2003,13:21)]I think that a few of those who have commented need to step back a moment and think about what they would have done.  Especially thoughtprovoking for me was your situation of removing the last strobe to then see diver's bubbles?  Would the detractors have ignored the bubbles or risked blowing even their plus 5 plan to see if there was a problem?  

It would be interesting to see how others would feel they would have coped with that situation, bearing in mind they are in the fortunate position of being able to consider at length from their keyboard.
<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

I don't think anyone was criticising Mark in particular, I know I wasn't. The last strobe and still seeing bubbles issue comes partly from the fact that Mark was diving solo and that there were solo divers on the dive.

If Mark had a buddy then things may have been different. He wouldn't have had to make the decision alone. If the solo diver had a buddy things may have been different. He may have remembered to add a strobe. If the solo diver had a buddy and then followed the procedure and fixed a strobe it may have been different. The buddy pairs are helping each other.

Not only that but the other diver then left the last strobe that Mark left and then started worrying about it later. He obviously felt that the rules didn't apply to him. This caused unneccessary confusion. None of which was Marks fault, other than he made the decision to leave his buddy, again because his buddy changed the plan, not Mark.

Mark had his plan, and it was changed for him. I really don't know what I would have done in his situation apart from the fact that I wouldn't have dived with a buddy I hadn't dived with before and who was on a different plan to me. I do say that from the comfort of my keyboard having not spent £120 on gas and £x for the trip and holidays off work. I believe thats were the potential incident pit started, not at the last strobe point. I really am not a detractor Lou, and like I said, was not criticising Mark at all. (Although I'm sure you thought I would
)

Kindest Regards

Andy
 

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Andy, I wasn't meaning you, and although a name or two springs to mind who I would include I also meant those who would sit and judge whilst reading it.

I agree that a buddy for both divers may have helped *prevent* that instance, but not necessarily.  I just used that example as a specific point for discussion as it is potentially quite emotive.  Given all the circumstances would you have broken your plan to go and see if the bubbles came from a diver in distress?  I buddy wouldn't necessarily help you make that decision as I would guess it comes from within you and you are unlikely to be swyed by any hand waving or scribbled notes to the contrary.  However I've never been in anything like that sitaution so I am only guessing!

I too wouldn't have dived with a buddy I had never dived with before, but I guess in a team type dive you are trusting that it isn't some geezer off the street and that everyone has been invited along and is well known to someone, so the situation is different again to anything I have experienced.

Mark has been the first to admit that it all went tits up, he didn't have to write the post, and he was more honest than he needed to be, without excuses, which I think is great.  I do think that more is to be gained from thinking it all through and discussing it than from just dismissing it as a literal example of the title.

I was wondering where Mark's "tail" was going to come into it all though.....
, sounded almost pornographic!

Dive safe

Lou
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ Aug. 26 2003,16:27)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]
If Mark had a buddy then things may have been different. He wouldn't have had to make the decision alone. If the solo diver had a buddy things may have been different. He may have remembered to add a strobe. If the solo diver had a buddy and then followed the procedure and fixed a strobe it may have been different. The buddy pairs are helping each other.

Not only that but the other diver then left the last strobe that Mark left and then started worrying about it later. He obviously felt that the rules didn't apply to him. This caused unneccessary confusion. None of which was Marks fault, other than he made the decision to leave his buddy, again because his buddy changed the plan, not Mark.
To be honist I think you have all been very generous. I was expecting far more criticisum than I have received.

Thanks all

Mark Chase
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ Aug. 27 2003,00:32)]To be honist I think you have all been very generous. I was expecting far more criticisum than I have received.
You're a useless ugly git that drives a crap car!

Does that make you feel better Mark.
 

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Now THAT'S technical diving! Fantastic read Mark.

I've found myself doing more solo stuff in the same vein - solo but with others doing the same dive.  The feeling of freedom, and the reduction in task loading is excellent and makes it feel like an intirely different sort of dive.


Cheers Mate!
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hello,

This is what I think, when doing this type of dives, I will do them with my Buddy. For me diving solo is not an option and in my diving rules is a compromise of safety. I think being in two (that means being a good buddy pair, not just a diver diving solo beside you which will cause you more trouble than help). As I always say these are only up to each single diver and what you feel is good or not. Everyone has things which he consider is tolerable and others not.

So at the end it's all up to diver preference. But as said before it's up to the single diver needs, and better to never say no, on a technical dive you are always equipped for solo!

Pierre
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (diving dude @ Aug. 27 2003,00:38)]You're a useless ugly git that drives a crap car!
You are not a proper diver unless the kit in your car is worth at least 5 times as much as the car itself.  I could buy my car plus 2 back-ups (as per the best tech diving practices) for the cost of my primary light!

You know you have got it really bad when you plan your next car on the basis of how many stages you can fit in it and when you start calling all string cave line.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Lanny @ Aug. 27 2003,14:24)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (diving dude @ Aug. 27 2003,00:38)]You're a useless ugly git that drives a crap car!
Yeah True M8 but at least I dont have to wear THAT dry suit




[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You know you have got it really bad when you plan your next car on the basis of how many stages you can fit in it and when you start calling all string cave line.
My M8 Pete and his wife Lesley have just baught a pick up truck one of the Mitsubushy Worrier things. Reasion why? they couldent fit their 6 twin sets 10 stages and CD Scooter in their Ford Focus


I kid you not

ATB

Mark Chase
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (malcolm smith @ Aug. 22 2003,21:51)]Great report Mark, so detailed I almost thought I was there enough to put it in my logbook  


By the way, if Bob Cooper is out there and has done this wreck, any chance of a report so we can hear of other ways of doing these dives?
 

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Since you ask, yes I dived the Illinois just a couple of weeks ago:

I had arranged this dive ages ago.  In fact, I remember getting a call from Anke Otto in May, while I was in France.  Anke was keen to do a scooter dive.  I remember checking my diary and saying yes!

I arrived in Weymouth and unloaded my gear onto Autumn Dream.  There were a few familiar faces on the boat, Jez Kent, Michael Williams and Ian McDean.  No sign of Anke though!  The other divers on the boat that day were mostly KISS RB divers.

Anke arrived, and I helped her load her gear.  When Autumn Dream slipped her moorings we started setting up our gear.  Anke had a near empty 21m bottle, so we discussed what to do about it.  Luckily, she had a fill whip, so went around "stealing" about 10bar from all the 50% bottles on the boat. By the time she'd finished, she had  nearly full bottle, so we were in business!

On the way out we discussed the procedure with the trapeze.  I don't like these things and prefer to use a DSMB.  However, we decided to use the trapeze, since that seemed to be the way that everybody liked to do things.  We use these things up in Liverpool Bay and they are reasonably sucessful, but I'd never used one with so many divers before.

We all manufactured our own "tag".  Mine consisted of a line arrow with my name on it, tied to a small boltsnap.  Jez, Michael and I joked that us cave divers must stick together!

When we got to the wreck, the trapeze was deployed and we kitted up whilst waiting for the slack.  At this stage there was some confusion over who was to go in first.  Originally, Anke and I elected to go last, giving the other divers a better slack window.  We weren't too bothered about the slack, since with the scooters we would hardly notice any current on the wreck.  Then, somebody suggested that we go first, scooter down to the wreck and tie in the shot.  This last minute change of plan had us hurrying to get into our gear, only to find that somebody was already fully kitted, so we reverted to Plan A.

I should point out that this wasn't really a "team" dive.  Anke and I were a team of course, but we were just guests on a dive arranged by somebody else.

Anyway, we were the last pair in and after our bubble checks, we descended the line and found the wreck at about 55m.  We had planned a 20 min BT at 60m.  We stayed along the top of the wreck (the Illinois is upright) and once at our target depth, sorted ourselves out, exchanged "okays" and hit the trigger!!  wow!!

Everybody had attached strobes to the shotline.  I don't think that this is necessary.  If the layout of the wreck is such that you may not be able to find the shot, you should reel off.  If that was the case, I would tie off, clip off the scooter and then go swimming with my reel.  Anyway, on this occasion, vis was reasonably good (12m) and the wreck is easy to navigate so off we went.

Scootering adds a whole new dimension to diving.  Everything seems to happen at a million miles an hour.  As we scootered along the wreck, I adjusted my speed to match Anke and watched carefully for her light signals.  I was mortified to discover later on that she was having some trouble with a backup regulator that had a tendancy to freeflow....and I hadn't noticed!  It took her three attempts to get my attention and turn the dive around.  I was having so much fun it let my enjoyment detract from my attention to my buddy.  This wasn't a major problem but it did make me think hard about my situational awareness and buddy skills while scootering.  I've had this happen to me before......I've been delayed with a stage or something while buddy goes scootering off into the distance.  It's easy to do.  Hit the trigger for 10 seconds and you will end up a fair distance from your buddy!

Anyway, we turned the dive.  On stopping, I was suddenly aware of a fair bit of current on the wreck.  I was on the rail and Anke was geting slowly swept across the wreck and behind some accomodation block(?) meaning I couldn't see her light for a few seconds.  I stayed on the rail (this was our visual reference back to the shot line and I treat this like a line in a cave) and pointed my light towards where Anke was to show here where I was and which way was "home".  She had just stopped for a few seconds to sort out her tow cord and quickly got out of visual contact due to the current.  Within a few seconds she reappeared, I confirmed the "exit" direction with my light and we scootered back along the rail.

On reaching the shotline, we spent a few minutes mooching around and then thumbed the dive.  On the way up we stowed our scooters, cradling them between our legs and were the last pair up so after removing our "tags" we deployed the trapeze and made our 21m switch.

Back at the trapeze, we found about 10 divers at 6m.  After making our switch to our 100% bottles we both decided to get into a little mischeif!  We unclipped our scooters and decided to "buzz" a few od them!  This is a good way of passing the time but perhaps not such a good way of monitoring your buddy while at deco!

All in all this was a good dive.  As with all my dives I learnt something (remember, you never stop learning).  I learnt to be far more vigilant when scootering.  This is much harder in the sea than in a cave.  Light signals are much easier to see in a cave.

We had no drama, stress or problems.  Regarding the trapeze, I would offer the following advice.....Don't touch it!!!!  Use it as a visual reference only, but don't rely on it!  Use the bottom timer on your wrist and your ears.  What happened to Mark on his Illinois dive was unfortunate and I am surprised that Phil managed to get Tango caught up like that.  If that had happened to me I think I would have bagged off there and then, but it's easy for me to say that after the fact.

Anyway, our Illinois dive was on 18/45 with 50% and 100%.

I came away from Weymouth and drove to Poole for two more days of offshore dives on Beowulf...Now that's another story..............
 

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Top report Bob, thanks for that.

If you know Phill's boat you will know that he has a line down the starbod side and he prefers to come up to the right sholder of a diver and let him pick up the line and follow it arround to the lift. It was this line that was somehow lifted over one of the bouys and got tangled in the station. It was the fault of the inexperianced diver on the station bouy not swimming away from the station before atracting the boat that caused the problem. It wasnt Phill's fault.

Also this was the first diver back on the boat so Phill was engauged with driving the boat and had no one looking out on the kit deck.

I just want to be sure people understand it was not Phills fault.

ATB

Mark Chase
 

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Very many thanks to both Bob and Mark for the reports.
The more of these we can read, the more we will learn-----I guess we never know how our posts are perceived by others, mine very rarely are intended to imply any criticism, and most certainly in this thread none has been intended.
Lou, you have got me paranoid----did you mean me as a critic  


All the best, Malcolm.
 

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I am truley sorry M8

I spend all day writing reports and I have to use spell check, the oxford dictionary and The South East 1 and London Postal adress book to check spelling probably 200 times a day. So please forgive me that when posting for my passion of diving I just cant be arssed to cut paste to Word and spell check
before re pasting to the board.

Beleive it or not I also teach and lecture on Surveying buildings. I always say at the begining I am dyslexic so unless you cant understand what I have writen on the board dont bother correcting me. It wont help my condition.

I do however apolagise for the inconveniance caused by my lazeyness.


ATB

Mark Chase
 
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