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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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After reading the end of DIRvStroke post I got to thinking about intervention from authorities in our everyday lives. I get really fed up with HSE type intervention and from other do gooders.

Protecting us from unscrupulous suppliers of sub standard goods or services - FINE - doing an OK job, keep it up.

Telling people what they should and shoudn't do is just wrong. If people want to buy diving kit and are silly enough to use it without some training then that is their lookout - no one elses. Ditto any other activity you care to mention. A proviso for this statement is that the activities do not cause death or injury to others.

An example of a ridiculous HSE rule is that my local dive emporium will no longer supply me with EANx unless I bring my card to the shop. This is despite the fact that they have known me for over six years + they trained me through PADI EANx course + I took the TDI advanced EANx & deco at the same time as the shop owner + they have a photo copy of my card (both sides) on the clip board where you sign accepting what mix you have received. It is not their fault.

Roll on the revolution - except it will not be allowed on the grounds that people might hurt themselves or are not properly qualified.

Am I the only one p*ssed abt this type of thing?
 

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Just not enough dive time.
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Nope, people should be responsible for their own actions, subject to your proviso re: others. Its no good hiding behind somebody else when it all goes belly up if its your own fault.

Matt
 

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I reckon they should pass a "Personal responsibility" act - so all the idiots causing all the legal crap get weeded out straight away - just something that says people have a duty to use their own judgement to avoid harm, and if they don;t use it, it's their own fault.

So if someody says "I walked past a sign saying 'wet floor - slippery' and then slipped up, so I want to sue them for causing me injury" they get told it was their own fault, sod off. Currently, they get told "Come on in, we'll get them for millions"

Just IMHO, of course...

When it comes to Nitrox, tho, our local shop is so bizarre about Nitrox, we're very happy to know we've got some cylinders of O2 on order for our club hut..
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Hi

In terms of cylinder fills and stuff its not necessarily the HSE or others that make it awkward and its not as simple as Chris makes out saying you don't need a card to get a fill.

IDEST is the real problem. Stoney Cove is notoriously picky about wanting Nitrox stickers, etc (this is even on cylinders with black and white quarters) and will refuse to fill cylinders blaming IDEST. Ridiculous really. It seems that different dive shops interpret these 'guidelines' however they want. Luckily our club has nitrox and I'm a blender so I try to get fills from the club. When I get my trimix cert I'll more than likely get some helium J's in my garage and get my blender cert for that so I am not at the mercy of IDEST et al.

Most diveshops I show my card whether they ask or not, I have to write the number down anyway on the fill sheet. A few occasions it hasn't been asked for more notably when filled by diving operators in preperation for the following days diving. I would say it is good practice to ask for cards as any store that does not care about who gets a fill obviously might not care about the quality of that fill and how often they change the filters etc.

Andy

PS I hate any bureaucrat making decisions for me from behind a desk, about anything
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ Sep. 01 2003,12:18)]Hi

In terms of cylinder fills and stuff its not necessarily the HSE or others that make it awkward and its not as simple as Chris makes out saying you don't need a card to get a fill.
My local shop said it was the HSE - I will check.
"....as simple as Chris makes out" - I can't see that bit.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]IDEST is the real problem. Stoney Cove is notoriously picky about wanting Nitrox stickers, etc (this is even on cylinders with black and white quarters) and will refuse to fill cylinders blaming IDEST.
This was not a cylinder labelling issue - purely and simply a "production of cert" issue.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Ridiculous really. It seems that different dive shops interpret these 'guidelines' however they want.
Isn't it irritating.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Luckily our club has nitrox and I'm a blender so I try to get fills from the club. When I get my trimix cert I'll more than likely get some helium J's in my garage and get my blender cert for that so I am not at the mercy of IDEST et al.
A route I would follow myself if I had a bigger place. Do you NEED to be qualified ? Common sense, the right blending tables and read some books ? (I don't know - I am just asking?).

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Most diveshops I show my card whether they ask or not, I have to write the number down anyway on the fill sheet. A few occasions it hasn't been asked for more notably when filled by diving operators in preperation for the following days diving.
Not a problem for me either IF I get a fill anywhere other than my normal place.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I would say it is good practice to ask for cards as any store that does not care about who gets a fill obviously might not care about the quality of that fill and how often they change the filters etc.
Mmmmm, maybe. My point is that the shop supplying the gas should not have to care as it not their problen if someone wants to dive to 60 mtrs on 40% O2 etc. I must admit if I am diving away from home I do wonder about how clean the fill is - I guess we might have to give credit to someone (HSE) for there being a good standard around.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]PS I hate any bureaucrat making decisions for me from behind a desk, about anything
There is a line, which seems pretty obvious to me, beyond which common sense goes out of the window as far as the "authorities" (whoever they may be) are concerned.
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (wetlettuce @ Sep. 01 2003,12:41)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finless @ Sep. 01 2003,12:30)]asdsad
what does that mean then ?
Andy,

It means I am an idiot who doesn't know how to do multiple quotes without creating a reply first (any old garbage) and then editing it later.

as & d happen to be the keys I use to create a message and then I go back, edit and create my proper reply.

Sorry abt that - I realy got Dom confused once doing that. Replies were coming back in from Dom before I had a chance to do any editing.

Rgds
Bryan
 

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Hey, on the latest Nanny State thingy - it'll shortly be illegal to sell any rebreather that isn't CE approved. Even if you're selling it second-hand.

So if you make the slightest modification to an Inspiration, you won't be able to sell it.

Be interesting to see how that affects the navy antiques sales
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finless @ Sep. 01 2003,12:30)]Do you NEED to be qualified ? Common sense, the right blending tables and read some books ? (I don't know - I am just asking?).
Finless

Common sense is rare


I think your simple question is really the crux of the matter. You don't know what you don't know.

I have heard several 'Nitrox untrained' divers assume that Nitrox allows you to go deeper. How do you get to learn otherwise?

1) A course
2) Read a book (what book now becomes the question)

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]My point is that the shop supplying the gas should not have to care as it not their problem if someone wants to dive to 60 mtrs on 40% O2 etc.
How much worse this situation would be when the dead diver's family start asking 'How was he supposed to know he should not go to 60m on 40% O2.' The system won't stop the stupid, but it helps the innocent ignorant. And the stupid will have a hard time suing. They signed to say they know what they were doing, and provided a card to 'prove it'.

Funny how they would want a card for 22%, but would not even check qualification AT ALL for air. Not really consistent.

I don't think there is any law that says we must sign a book for Nitrox. It is most likely a 'code of practice' setup. HSE issues then arise in an incident when they start asking 'why did you not follow your organisation's code of practice?' Such codes of practice are written by the organisations, not bureaucrats.

Adrian
 

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Agreed.  It's nuts.  If you're not hurting anyone else, and you're not likely to, then I don't see why every single thing we want to do has to be governed by laws, associations, bodies etc.

I am reminded that to go diving, you don't have to do any training at all, by law. Hmmm.

I remember refusing to pay £120 to learn to dive a DS - I'd already been show how by my mate (an instructor).  The hassle that caused...
 

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There's no actual need for qualifications to blend your own gas - just ring Air Products and get them to drop off some O2 and He and you can do what you like with it.

How good an idea that would be, only you know
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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I've given up using "asdad" and instead post the following HSE approved statement - "I am trying to reply to Adrian's post using multiple quotes and this is the only way I know how to do it because I am not properly qualified. However, I have had some success with this method and have not yet joined the infamous and deceased cast of the Darwin Awards and, as somewhat of a pioneer, may be able to assist others in the future.

The message is being edited as you read this and a fully sanctioned reply will be available shortly and further down the page.
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Adrian Kelland @ Sep. 01 2003,13:22)]
Common sense is rare
It would appear that the powers that be (whoever they are) are trying to make life easier by removing a person's need to use it.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I think your simple question is really the crux of the matter. You don't know what you don't know.
I don't know for certain but common sense dictates that I would be dealing with high pressure gasses (might go bang) that are used for breathing and need to be as free of contaminants as possible. Also, O2 is required for combustion to occur so be v/careful with 100%.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I have heard several 'Nitrox untrained' divers assume that Nitrox allows you to go deeper. How do you get to learn otherwise?

1) A course
2) Read a book (what book now becomes the question)
You missed out trial and error. Any book on the subject - preferably written or recommended by someone who dives.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]How much worse this situation would be when the dead diver's family start asking 'How was he supposed to know he should not go to 60m on 40% O2.'
This is the crux of my point. The question "how was he SUPPOSED to know" can be taken to imply it was someones duty to have stopped him from doing something stupid. WHY. My example (60 mtrs/40%) was a poor one to use as a discussion point BUT if he did that then it is his fault.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]The system won't stop the stupid, but it helps the innocent ignorant.
All it needs is a warning sign - without training you can die.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]And the stupid will have a hard time suing. They signed to say they know what they were doing, and provided a card to 'prove it'.
This suing everyone business is a result of too much of the Nanny State - now it is the norm to blame someone else.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Funny how they would want a card for 22%, but would not even check qualification AT ALL for air. Not really consistent.
By definition air is air and EANx isn't - I guess that is the reasoning behind it.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I don't think there is any law that says we must sign a book for Nitrox. It is most likely a 'code of practice' setup. HSE issues then arise in an incident when they start asking 'why did you not follow your organisation's code of practice?' Such codes of practice are written by the organisations, not bureaucrats.
I am not sure of the exact definition (law/rule/code of practise) and I have no problem with signing to confirm I agree with the O2 mix I am getting.

I am not against some of the rules and regs. It is just that they are being taken way too far.


     
 

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Trial and Error, hmm. This week I shall mostly be breathing 100% O2. If some oxygen is good for you, more must be better, mustn't it?

Generally, most Health and Safety acts have come in as a result of fatal incidents, not before. They are not about giving routes to suing or casting blame, but saving life and injury.

It is not about a nanny state. You can pretty much bet that one, or more usually several people have died before laws to prevent such death have come into place. Most of those dying have not been stupid, but ignorant. The ignorant have often also been the bosses.

I started using BA for confined spaces (manholes etc) working around the same time as SCUBA. The training emphasis was the same, prevention with training regarding escape.

Without appropriate training (and 6mth re-examination) I would have not known that a just opened 4m deep, manhole in a chalk environment, would almost certainly kill me. It was found out the hardway, usually in groups of 3. It's 3 because thats how many people fit in the front of a Transit.

You could read a book, but until you have some decent prior knowledge, how do you judge good from bad?

Sport diving is very unregulated. Long may it remain so. Hopefully the systems that are used at the moment will keep it that way. If we allow the stupid to dive and die, because it's their fault, then it will be our negligence that has allowed them to die, because we know better than them. Friends of mine have died diving, and they were trained. I sure many of us are in this position. How much greater the number of families affected this would become without checks and balances?

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you're a long time dead.

Adrian

PS. Suing comes into play when someone is to blame. I don't like the 'where there's blame, there's a claim' culture as there tends to be reckless suing. The lawyers are to blame here. You've seen the TV ads. Thankfully some are going out of business as claims are lost. This is why companies train staff. Then the member of staff is to blame if they don't follow that training.
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Adrian Kelland @ Sep. 01 2003,16:16)]Trial and Error, hmm. ...............
..............................
.................   Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you're a long time dead.
Adrian,

In view of your background training and experiences involving loss of life, I do not really feel right harping on about this - particularly as I tend (or try to) keep a light and humerous tone to the topic.

In the instance of the work related fatalities involving chalk pits and manholes I have no arguement. Incidents such as that one show why the HSE (et all) were required in the first place.

However, it is my opinion, for example, that if someone wants to walk around in a hard hat area without a hard hat then that is his/her look out. I have a similar opinion on the subject of crash helmets for motor cyclists. I would wear the head gear in both instances but if someone doesn't then ..

It is just a gut feeling I have that the "safety culture" is being taken too far and there seem to be rules and regulations for everything. I am not really sure I can explain it better than that.

My reason originaly for bringing up the point was ref the fact that my local dive shop stated they could not do my EANx fills without seeing my cert card - despite the fact that they know me well, trained me to do the EANx course and have a photocopy of both sides of my cert card in the shop - allegedly as required by the HSE (which I will check out).

Hope I did not drag up any unhappy memories.

Rgds
Bryan
 

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I won't go into specifics but, in general terms, how far are you people that think "people should be allowed to be responsible for their own actions" willing to take that? For example:
1. Should smokers who develop a smoking-related disease and people who develop an alcohol-related disease not be treated under the health service but made to pay for their own treatment, including any surgery?
2. Should divers who become bent owing to their own carelessness be made to pay for the helicopter ride and chamber treatment?
I just wondered.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Finless @ Sep. 01 2003,16:54)]However, it is my opinion, for example, that if someone wants to walk around in a hard hat area without a hard hat then that is his/her look out. I have a similar opinion on the subject of crash helmets for motor cyclists. I would wear the head gear in both instances but if someone doesn't then ..
I think in general, someone who did not wear a hardhat in a well signed area, and continued after being told to put one on or leave the area, would be on their own. Issues regarding undestanding the written word/English and visual symbols can still confuse.

And safety is just not about the person directly involved, but family, friends and even people they don't know. What would you rather come across in a m/c accident. A person with a helmet on or a lump of bloody pulp?

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]It is just a gut feeling I have that the "safety culture" is being taken too far and there seem to be rules and regulations for everything. I am not really sure I can explain it better than that.
Its still very easy to jump off a bridge, step on electrified rail, fly a kite near power lines etc. I am very much a Darwinist, its just a shame that stupid people mangage to breed before killing themselves.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]My reason originaly for bringing up the point was ref the fact that my local dive shop stated they could not do my EANx fills without seeing my cert card - despite the fact that they know me well, trained me to do the EANx course and have a photocopy of both sides of my cert card in the shop - allegedly as required by the HSE (which I will check out).
It does seem quite stupid of the shop when they have a copy, else what does they copy provide? I doubt there is any HSE law stating they get the details, but the HSE may require them to use current 'best practice' whatever that may be.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Hope I did not drag up any unhappy memories.

Rgds
Bryan
Its not a problem for me, I remember them having fun. I still smile when I remember how 2 of us tried to blow ourselves up by short circuiting a battery in a battery box. I still have the acid stained shorts.


Adrian
 

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Finless: You couldn't invent him...
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (John Gulliver @ Sep. 01 2003,16:56)]I won't go into specifics but, in general terms, how far are you people that think "people should be allowed to be responsible for their own actions" willing to take that? For example:
1. Should smokers who develop a smoking-related disease and people who develop an alcohol-related disease not be treated under the health service but made to pay for their own treatment, including any surgery?
2. Should divers who become bent owing to their own carelessness be made to pay for the helicopter ride and chamber treatment?
I just wondered.
John,

I assume this was a question to me and, may I say, it is a bit of an "old chestnut" (the smoking part, anyway) but nonetheless a good question. I don't think there would ever EVER be an agreed answer to it (or the other examples that would eventually be thrown up in the course of any debate).

My personal answer is we have a national health service to which most of us have contributed, therefore, in both instances I would say they are worthy of treatment.

If they are not UK residents who have "contributed to the system" - I am tending towards make them pay.

Also, life is terminal and there is a good chance we may be ill before the "train pulls in" (terminal - geddit??. Or is that terminus?). People are treated for "careless injuries" everyday so why exclude divers.

Life is full of unfair things - like Council Tax based on property price banding - why should I pay the same amount as next door? I (and my significant other) do not have, nor want, any children. Next door have three - I don't create as much rubbish etc as they. Why should I contribute to school funding when I have no children to go there?

For the most part we have little choice but to put up with it.

Is it just Monday or am I in a miserable old git mood. Let me think. No, it is definitely the latter.

 

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The problem you could get is that if someone with absolutely no diving training bought a load of gear and then booked on a trip, got buddied up with a qualified yet inexperianced diver, well you can imagine that both could come to serious problems.
And I agree with the fact that a lot of divers that arent trained in nitrox believe that nitrox lets you go deeper, there should be a check in the first instance to keep such people from making possibly deadly mistakes that could get them and thier buddy killed.
 
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