thoughts

peter k · Apr 28, 2003

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http://www.diverecord.com/DiverHome.asp?p=s

Out of interest. Check the site out.
What is peak performance buoyancy?
What is entailed in being a shark diver?
What is the speciality of being AWARE of fish?
What is an equipment specialist?

Is it just me or should any reasonable experianced buddy be able to explain to a less experienced person at least 3/4 of these courses in a couple of sentences?
i.e. Night diver- Err, it's the same water as during the day only darker. Advice-bring a torch, Boat diver- jump off and climb back on. If you need to launch a SMB I'll show you how it's done before we go near a boat.
This is all passing info on to less experienced divers without fleecing them for X-£ for a wee badge that shows simple diver skills.

Peter
PS here's the new ScotSAC training schedule. Thoughts on a postcard please
http://www.scotsac.com/training/proposed_changes.htm#schedule

steve-k · Apr 28, 2003

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i agree for most of us they are a waist of time

but, and there is allways a but

there are a vast number of divers who only ever dive whilest on holliday, it could take these divers 10 years to accumalate the diving we do in 1 year, they have little or no contact with other divers, aimed at these divers then these courses have there puropus

was on a boat on holliday and a diver was mortified that i droped to 35m to have a quick look at a mory, the dive breif was for 20m max, he just could not grasp that i was not putting byself in mortal danger droping an extra 15m in excellent vis
a verry inexperianced diver got so worked up about diving off the boat that they threw up befour they got on

we take for granted the knowlage and experiance we gain from our more experianced dive budies, but for divers who do not have the luxury of our club structures, these courses do have some merit

markg · Apr 28, 2003

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re:the new ScotSAC training schedule
what a load of bollocks !
just my thoughts of course

Seadart Bob · Apr 28, 2003

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well done mark,
young peter is going to be well impressed with that interpretation

markg · Apr 28, 2003

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well he did ask for peoples thoughts

peter k · Apr 28, 2003

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (markg @ April 28 2003,14:21)]re:the new ScotSAC training schedule
what a load of bollocks !
just my thoughts of course

Indeed Bob.
Thanks for your well thought out response Mark. I shall be sure to highlight your main bullet points and pass them on to the NDC. I see you edited it. I would be most interested to see exactly what the pre-edited version was.

Peter

markg · Apr 28, 2003

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just added "just my thoughts"

peter k · Apr 28, 2003

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Very good Mark. I would be interested in why you think it's "a load of bollocks" though. Please try and put forward a, at least, semi-sensible response now though instead of "coz it just is a load of bollocks"

Peter

markg · Apr 28, 2003

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most incidents involve sports divers because there are more sport divers.
sports diver no longer satisfies minimum level required, why ?
level 1/2 must be accompanied by a bi. god help the level 1/2diver
level 4 diver must have experience of office at branch level
yeah right that's really helpful under water
etc etc etc etc etc etc
when are they going to stipulate what car different grades must drive, political preferences etc.
there are a few good points but its just seems to me as if someone at hq has too much time on their hands

Dr Stevil · Apr 28, 2003

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (markg @ April 28 2003,15:10)]1) most incidents involve sports divers because there are more sport divers.

2) level 4 diver must have experience of office at branch level
yeah right that's really helpful under water

Re your point#1, you've missed the important bit:

(snip) highlight a significant trend incident surrounding this increase; the vast majority of incidents involve Sports Divers exceeding the limits of their training and experience.

Sounds to me like they're looking and listening to what's going on and trying to tackle a problem. I'm particuarly in agreement with their observations that:

"Lastly all were aware of a marked change in divers perceptions with regard to depth and training. Put simply the average Branch Diver perceives a 30m dive to be an average dive and not a particularly deep dive. Most divers, although acknowledging, the need for the recent depth limitations, seem to think they are more than capable of diving beyond 30m. This is similar a study of drivers which revealed that although most acknowledged driving whilst using a mobile phone was potentially dangerous most thought they could cope. Most drivers failed to cope during a simulation of driving/phoning. This is true of the diving incident reports as well, Sports Divers fail to cope when required to carry out rescue techniques."

I think 30 metres is relatively deep, I certainly wouldn't take a 30 or 30+metre dive lightly and would have a thorough dive plan with plenty of stops in it, regardless of what computers or tables may say, I'd also be highly inclined to do the shallower stops on high O2 mixes if I'd been past 30 metres.

As for point #2, I think that's more to do with attaching some level of "club responsibility" to the higher diver grades, which again, I see nothing wrong with.

Just my thoughts....
Steve (a non-SSAC diver)

peter k · Apr 28, 2003

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (markg @ April 28 2003,15:10)]

most incidents involve sports divers because there are more sport divers.
sports diver no longer satisfies minimum level required, why ?
level 1/2 must be accompanied by a bi. god help the level 1/2diver

A training level1/2 diver is the old basic SSAC sport diver who through their training would have to be accompanied by a BI anyway with restrictions on depth. It's really just split the sport diver qual in the middle with SMB traing thrown in.
Here's the old schedule. http://www.scotsac.com/training/training_schedule_index.htm

level 4 diver must have experience of office at branch level
yeah right that's really helpful under water

I honestly cannot see where it says this.

when are they going to stipulate what car different grades must drive, political preferences etc.

Emm, we have been told. Lada Riva/level 1 diver, Ford Fiesta/level 2 diver, Volkswagon Golf/level 3 diver, Fiat Laguna/level 4 diver, Subaru Impreza/ level 5 diver. And we all have to vote SNP.

there are a few good points but its just seems to me as if someone at hq has too much time on their hands.

SSAC is an entirely voluntary outfit. There is only 2 paid girls(one of them part-time) doing the secretarial bit. All these ideas/decisions are made by an unpaid commitee.

Peter

markg · Apr 28, 2003

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sorry my mistake it's level 5 diver

peter k · Apr 28, 2003

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OK, fair enough. Though you can probably count on two hands the amount of 1st class/level 5 divers SSAC has(No joke). I personally only know of one and we're the 2nd biggest branch in Scotland(Dumfries + Galloway being the biggest). The amount of time and effort that goes into this qual your branch would be screaming out to at least have you on the commitee at some level, so in a way I can kind of understand it. I don't know if it should be a pre-requsite though.

Peter

markg · Apr 28, 2003

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i'm not knocking ssac (honest).i've been a member for five yrs
i just can't understand why they want to change the training.
I believe you should give the people the facts and let them make their own mind up, not dictate to them.it's the same with the new 30 m depth limit. i've done quite a few to 40 + now i can't go below 30 ?. well if i don't come back it's MY fault not anybody elses. this is my HOBBY (something that i do for pleasure).it's the same as having a 180mph superbike and never going above 70mph, i know my limits and i know the risks and i won't be looking for someone to blame

peter k · Apr 29, 2003

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Yeah your quite right. I don't know why it's being changed either. Remember these are only "proposed changes", but when commiteees propose something and the wheels start turning it's normally hard to stop(especially if the proposals have been made public). It was only 3yrs ago they changed 3rd, 2nd and 1st class to SD, MD and 1st class. I'm still waiting on the now almost mythical training manuals and I've done my MD. Will it take another 3yrs for the new-new version to come out. You'll then be in a situation of 6yrs worth of divers with no manuals.

30mtr limit- It's always been there. Just in the past year or so all the DO's have been instructed by the big-chief-heejins to enforce it. The best thing you can do to keep everyone happy is do the MD award. There is an insurance reason for it as well. When I get back I'm thinking about doing the Deep diver award for a bit more education on table diving and deco-procedures. God knows I think I need it

Peter

Gavin Yates · Apr 29, 2003

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I've gotta say Peter that this is the kind of thing that puts me off joining SSAC or any other club based organisation.

I regularly dive over 30m and with both TDI Adv Nitrox and Deco procs (oh and PADI Rescue Diver) but most importantly a good deal of experience, sensible equipment and I hope a safety first attitude I don't see how anybody can tell me not to dive the Wallachia or the Glanmire.

I keep on thinking about joining a club - new buddies, the chance to maybe help others etc but with no strategic thinking many clubs will cease or the diving will die off.

I hope I'm wrong.

peter k · Apr 29, 2003

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You can dive deeper if you're qualified to. This is as far as the SSAC Sport diver qual will let you go, but if you have a ticket from an outside agency then it's OK.

Peter

Dr Stevil · Apr 29, 2003

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Just for comparison,
BSAC Sports diver = 35 metre max (not that much different to SSAC)

BSAC Dive Leader or Advanced Diver = 50m max

Steve

markg · Apr 29, 2003

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peter
i'm 95% on my way towards my md but haven't bothered going any further coz it looks like they're going to move the goalposts so what's the point ?.
The saa is starting to sound quite appealing

thoughts

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