[Ammers]

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I've heard of quite a few folks getting bent on V Planner on deep dives and I've been tired on it myself despite extending my shallow water deco and racking up my setpoint.  On a 15 min bottom time to 102 metres on Tuesday I used V Plan and when the tables told me to get out, the VR3 said I had missed 38 minutes of stops!!   Why is V Planner so quick, even with high gradient conservatism???  Is anyone using V Plan and then Z Plan for the shallow stops?  It seems that the shallow deco in V Plan needs to be at least doubled.  I plan to do a load of dives in the 100m+ region now while building up my bottom time to build up for a deep cave diving trip later in the year - but I need to get a feel for some better software - I don't want to fully commit to the VR3 yet as I have some doubts about the deep stops it generates.  Can anyone help?

 

[Jay]

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Let me get this straight - you did a dive to 102m for 15 mins bottom time, exited the water 38 minutes short of stops (albeit according to the VR3), on tables that are notorious for bending divers, FEELING TIRED and you are questioning the VR3's algorithms?

Ever considered the fact the the V Plan tables bent you? I take it you DID get medical advice on this just to make sure?

 

[MATTBIN]

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Not quite sure you have read Ammers right there. As I read it, I could be wrong, she said she has used it (V Planner) before and been tired even with extended stop times, but on this particular dive the VR3 showed 38 mins of stops extra. She didnt say she got out according to V Planner or the computer, so not sure which one she used.
Matt

(Edited by MATTBIN at 4:49 pm on Jan. 23, 2003)

 

[Mr T.]

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I'd look into this Ammers, if I were you, before you do you're next dive to that depth - Saturday??

You've been in convo's before about how V-planner can get folk bent, regularly, and you still use it? Wouldn't it make sense to use a table that more closely matched your computer of choice - VR3??

Just asking around, Deco-Planner is a more safe table/package to use. Suggest you get a bag of it before the Copper Mines punt in Feb - 140 metres??. How's the knees and head? Still bent? Get thee to a pot young lady - 4 YD-er's bent in one week. Like Jay said, let's not set a trend eh??

Dive safely in future. And know your limits!!

(Edited by Bren Tierney at 5:47 pm on Jan. 23, 2003)

 

[Driftwood]

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Last time I checked, even PADI said if you had two sources of deco information you always dive to the most conservative.

Maybe you should do the PADI Deep Diver Speciality? You might learn something!

PS Why did you ask me not to mention your 102m gig and then do your notorious self-publisist extravoganza?

PPS Gonna wind up the Dive-Oz crew with this one? I'm sure Simon Mitchell would be interested (you'd like him, 176m HMAS Centaur on a Carleton 15.5)

 

[Ammers]

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Eh?  Aren't you all making a few assumptions here!


The VR3 is modified ProPlanner which is modified Buhlmann - it is EXTREMELY conservative.  VPlanner is quicker and employs different deep stop and bubble gradient theory.  

They are all different - radically different.  38 mins is a standard difference between VR3 generated tables and software generated.  I have bent the VR3 on nearly every deep dive because I have been using software which calls in different deep stops. The VR3 sulks if you miss the stops it tells you.

Diving to the most conservative is not an option at those run times or temperatures - the body will not offgas efficiently when it gets too cold.  That's where diving really becomes technical to me - working out a schedule which gets you out cleanly.  The VR3 algorithm is not something I fully trust yet.  It is extremely handy for a redundant 4th cell reading on the Inspiration which is it's primary use to me at the moment.

If you put a VR3 onto a high gradient it will show a massive difference between it's expected deco and that of a more normal schedule.  Really - if people are going to advise - please can it be people who have actually seen a VR3 and used one??!?!

Really I was hoping for someone who was a bit clued up to answer this one - not a load of responses assuming I am bent because of dramatic differences in algorithms!!  

Bren - I can assume you have spoken to Andy Hayhurst as I did mention my dive to him and mention that I had a slight niggle in my knee.  I've had that a few times when not diving and even at the gym! So to make an assumption that I'm bent is ridiculous.   I did call for advice just to be on the safe side and they told me that it was definitely not DCI.  I suggest you speak to people directly instead of hearing half baked stories from others - chinese whispers eh?  This coming from people who aren't even box divers - I ask you!

If you knew anything about Decoplanner you would know it is not designed for Closed Circuit use. Kindly get the critical concepts right before you try giving out deco advice!

To the 3 who have had bends - expect the same nonsense in the same ilk from loads of people.  That's because these people don't understand that deeper diving has very little guarantees with software - there can be all sorts of funny feelings after deep dives - they are not all DCI!!

140 coming up on DDPlanner.  "KNOW YOUR LIMITS" - HOW ABOUT OPEN YOUR LIMITS?? "REDEFINE YOUR LIMITS"

Right. Now I'll ask my question again - has anyone used VPlanner with Z Plan for shallow stops? Do they have some profiles they can send me please. I don't know why someone would assume I am "winding up" aussies - I am looking for profiles to take me deeper, not wind people up.  If anyone has profiles of 100m+ dives using any derivative of VPM, please send to me. Stef? Pete? Db8? Thanks.

(Edited by Ammers at 7:36 pm on Jan. 23, 2003)

 

[Jay]

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My apologies for showing some modicum of concern. Feeling abnormally tired after such a deep dive combined with a 'niggle' in my knee would be sufficient for me to at least get it checked out. No doubt you'd see that as yet another failure in diving 'indoctrination' that applies to sheep like me and not to diving pioneers like you (to whom something as mundane as DCI could not possibly ever apply).

 

[Mr T.]

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In your own words petal:

"Really - if people are going to advise - please can it be people who have actually seen a VR3 and used one??!?!"

Neither I nor anyone else needs to have used, seen or become romantically invloved with any diving computer - let alone a VR3 - to know that you're doing something wrong if as you state:

"I have bent the VR3 on nearly every deep dive...."

some skill that, eh Ammers. Notwithstanding:

The VR3 sulks if you miss the stops it tells you.

so why miss them?? Doh?? You then make a foray in with:

Really I was hoping for someone who was a bit clued up to answer this one - not a load of responses assuming I am bent because of dramatic differences in algorithms!!

You're more than a little aware, Ammers, that most of the folk on here (whilst wishing you well in all your diving endeavours) gave up listening to your wholesale bravado and latest 'Grandstanding' and 'bleeding edge' diver exploits a long time ago. The attitude is, if we're being honest, 'Oh, Ammers, what's she done this time?'

Bren - I can assume you have spoken to Andy Hayhurst as I did mention my dive to him and mention that I had a slight niggle in my knee.

Him along with most other divers you know 'publicising' [grandstanding] your latest self-promoting stunt.

I've had that a few times when not diving and even at the gym! So to make an assumption that I'm bent is ridiculous.

If you came here with concerns about your knee after a vigorous gym workout, then we'd not be inclined to suspect DCI, would we? I'm not aware of a single recorded case of 'gym-related DCI'!

I did call for advice just to be on the safe side and they told me that it was definitely not DCI. I suggest you speak to people directly instead of hearing half baked stories from others - chinese whispers eh?

This from someone who makes a practice of starting those same 'myths & legends' herself....about herself!? LOL. More front than Woolworth's window.

This coming from people who aren't even box divers - I ask you!

And this, (along with your hang-up about being "the only female doing these profiles.." yawn) is always your sad refrain when confronted by anyone questioning the sanity of your usual 'me-me-me' self-promotion! We don't need to be box divers to know a wannabe when we see one. Just coz others more capable and experienced than you aren't doing the profiles you chance with (usually because they know better, and it's got f*ck-all to with "pushing my personal boundaries...") doesn't make their comment any the less sage. The honest truth is that you simply don't want to hear it.

You come on here with grandstanding opuses, not caring about what answers people give as long as they are in praise of Ammers. We'd have thought you have learnt that we got bored of it long ago.

Instead of 'KNOW YOUR LIMITS' - HOW ABOUT 'OPEN YOUR LIMITS'?? and 'REDEFINE YOUR LIMITS'?

Ignoring that regardless of seeking to push your limits (which is closer to the truth), you have to a limit from which to start to 'open' or push.

Have you asked the same question on the Inspiration user forum?? The DIS-UK board or any of the myriad other technical forums you might have addressed?? Did you ask AP for their input?? And what did they have to say about your little sojourn? I would have thought they were eminently more qualified to answer your questions - after all, you can't be the 1st person to have attempted (on similar kit) what you allege to have done this week in Dotty - rather than a forum of plain-stated "I dive for fun and not to push every limit I've ever read about" divers, as in YD's case.

I seem to be the only person that you did not phone before the alleged Dotty dive, as you conducted your usual general ring-around to all and sundry with your 'Don't tell anyone else this, but....' Behave yourself.

If you're being honest with yourself and us Ammers, you knew damned well that you had very little chance of getting anything like the answers you sought from YD. What is, at this time, ostensibly, a recreational diver forum (albeit with a growing techy section) looks on and just shakes its collective head at your antics. You were Grandstanding again.

I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but all we have to go on is your word that you did 102 metres in Dotty. OK, then can I ask if you're a certified Inspiration user yet?? If so, the course - as I understand it - only certs you to 40 metres!!! So what in f*ck are you doing at 102 metres??!

Are you gonna stump the bill for the pot when they either drag you out unconscious from some mine-shaft or deep whole or, God forbid, have to send an ROV in to collect your mortal remains?? I doubt it, so why put other people to the trouble?! 'Selfish' and/or 'arrogant' ring any bells, Ammers??

Sort your life out and please don't place posts (your much and oft-stated love of 'verbal hand-grenades') which are designed - you wish - to make folk think you're some form of dive-goddess. You'll find that you just become a figure a fun - no matter how serious you might like to take yourself.

And please don't insult our intelligence any more by trying that tired old line "People take too much of what's on the internet far too seriously" before braking out into your usual cackle. I would like to think your life is a serious and not a laughing matter - I only wish you did.

Dive safe.

 

[Andy Phillips]

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Ammers,

Over the last three or four months I have done a lot of research into decompression theory, mainly for me which is based on open circuit use. Basically your in troublr with this one. The are no absolute tables for use with CCR, there simply is not enough data available for true calculations on constan PPO2 diving. Decon planner with it's modified Buhlmann is not really suitable because it makes certain assumptions which are incompatible with constant PPO2. If you hunt around the net you will find various people have tried modified bubble gradient programs which have resulted in safe dives, but, all as far as I can see are still operating on a certain amount of guess work.

If you are really interested in the research I've done e-mail me off this forum and I will send the papers as well as my own conclusions. You would have to work through this and lift out the info for CCR's, as I said I have done this for me so most of it is based on open circuit.

p.s. the O2 sensor tester is complete, tested and functioning. It has been handed off to a manufacturer and should become a product over the next year.

Andrew

 

[Driftwood]

Oops

A new revised VPM model will be included in the next V-Planner version (3.00). The revised VPM model, designated VPM-B, makes further adjustments for Boyles Law considerations. The new profiles start at the same depths, but now have a longer shallow section. The last few stops are now closer to the traditional decompression profiles.

V-Planner will include the VPM-B model, and I should have a beta version within the week.

Regards
--
Ross Hemingway

Ooops! Unfortunately, your stops were not long enough after all!

 

[Ammers]

Imported post

Andyp - many thanks for that info. I've looked at Ross's stuff quite a lot in the past. I do very extended shallow stuff but I know he is releasing newer Vs all the time.   My VR3 has certain gases plumbed in and active but I'm really using it for 4th cell redundancy. Unless I tell it the true dive profile and gases etc it does get bent.  That's after I stay well within the gradients of PC software!!!! The VR3 is TOO conservative - look at the deep stops generation and how it offgases compared to what it does in the shallows - Z planner for instance throws out different deep stops but adds a lot of shallow time. Do you think this is "bending and mending"

?
VR3 however, gives 4th cell redundancy, which is more important to me than proplanner deco schedules - I would prefer to be using a VPM orientated schedule.  I'll email you off list re some profiles. Many thanks.

Oh - re the sensor tester - that is absolutely fantastic news.  I knew from the capability in the VR3 software that it could be possible. I am seriously impressed. I considered building a test bed myself which could get past 1.5 on land to get a true picture of sensor health but you beat me to it. Please email me offline with details of what materials you used etc. I am seriously, seriously impressed with that - it's been a long time coming.  You will be capturing a HUGE market there.

Martin is working on a CO2 sensor at the moment but there are a lot of technical difficulties with it.  He showed some very useful info on scrubber correlation of efficiency and depth if you are interested we can discuss offline.

You're right that the CCR profiles are unproven - my instructor for Mod1 CCR that I did my Mod 1 course with is still using pretty much ProPlanner but not aspiring to really deep stuff.  I need software which can get me in the range of about 190 metres over the long term but it's extremely, unbelievably hard to find.  I might have to end up writing my own.  I will email you some profiles off line, I've been running certain dives through different software and would be interested in your opinion. Cheers.

(Edited by Ammers at 12:18 am on Jan. 24, 2003)

 

[Ammers]

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Hi, just read your posts on the uk list. If you aren't getting bent on the shorter profile stick with it. You say you will be doing quite a few 100m dives so you should use a profile a few times then see what happens. If you get tired or have any other minor symptoms you may want to add a bit.
If you feel great and think you can get out quicker just cut a few mins off and see what happens. You will not suddenly get a massive bend by taking off a few mins. As long as the deco profile is reasonable and you feel ok and are doing the same dives over and over you will get a feel for the deco and can
chuck the tables away. I definitely wouldn't do an extra 38 mins because some computer told me. Tables will only help if you are doing depths or times you haven't done before but if you are doing 100m regularly you
will know what is enough deco. I dive 45 - 65m wrecks every weekend and over the years have mucked around shaving time off or modifying deco for the same
depths and bt and found this is the best way to find what works. You also need to feel your own fitness, warmth, hydration, exertion at depth etc and
take these into account. You are the best judge of all this and will find you can shave quite a bit off when the conditions are good. Don't get
caught up in all the 'technology' promoted by the dive industry. It is not 'rocket
science'
safe diving,
Scott


Brilliant advice - hope you don't mind me sharing it on the board for the non fish prodders.  I'm not getting bent on the shorter schedule but I do add extended shallow time on a staged 100% bottle at 6m - that's my redundancy on the rebreather being inoperable at that depth but I end up using the bottle anyway since it's there.   The team use the shorter schedule but I'm happier with extended shallow time.  I'm looking at the deep stops now to find out exactly the half times determined by them in VPlan and the tissue compartments affected. There is definitely an element of subclinical there. I'm going down to the sump, hopefully 106 m this time,  again at the weekend if we can't get on Buitenzorg so I will email you my profile on different software.  Oh, that's if my so-called bends let me out of my armchair HAHA. Cheers for the advice.

 

[189]

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Bren & others - well said!

Ammers - blah blah blah - am I still awake?

One week it's a drop down to 50m, next week a little poodle round Capers with no SMB, next week urging caution on the box and now straight down to 100+ (allegedly)

Sorry matey, wrong forum and I'm bored of hearing it :snore:

Paul

 

[darthmoll]

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boring....

 

[Phil Ennis]

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Well said Bren, I think we are all sick of this sh*t !!!!

YD is not a stage for this sort of thing, there must be Tekkie sites where it would be more appropriate to post.

Pinching someones quote here, "I am a fish prodder and proud of it."

 

[Ammers]

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Ah pardon me. I thought this site was for everyone from "fish prodders to uber-techies". It looks like tek discussion is not welcome! I'll fuck off now.

 

[Ian Daly]

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Ammers or AM - Whichever is coolest for you.

As far as I was concerned this is a site for the likes of my and other peoples children through to uber-tekkies and even foul-mouthed shameless selfpromoters.

You will probably find that the people considered to be uber-tekkies by me and my diving ilk don't view themselves in this light and are happy enough (and generous enough) to dish out a bit of advice from time to time.

Besides there is no point in having any other tekkies on here 'cause you have done it all, and even if someone else has done they probably didn't do it right anyway!!!

As many have quite rightly stated you are a bore, you act in the child like manner of 'I want some attention, any attention as long as I get some.' It pains me to type all of this because I am pandering to your pathetic ego.

As hard as it is for me to beleive you have some friends in the forum (I am not one of them, I personally think you are a bloody idiot), but I don't beleive you realise that some of them are sick and tired of defending you, you only have to read the post to see how you make people feel towards you.

Now ask yourself a question; How many times have you said that you were going to leave a forum never to return??? You always come back, you can't help it, you crave the attention, it is so sad.

Ian Daly

(Edited by Ian Daly at 8:15 pm on Jan. 24, 2003)

 

[Big Steph]

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Ammers, if what you say is true, well you are a statistic waiting to happen!!

You don't impress me one bit.

Big Steph.

 

[Ammers]

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You all say that but I did actually ask for advice on software - evidently your male egos are threatened if I don't ask a simple question so it's seen as self promotion.  I am not the slightest bit interested in attention or impressing people - I am driven by a burning need to push myself for my own personal sense of achievement.  That is something that I can't help, I just can't be content with feeling that I am not progressing.  Believe it or not I am still beating myself up that I haven't achieved more in the past year.  I need more knowledge - it is frustrating not being able to get access to the info I want.

What is wrong in stating the dive depth and asking for advice in context of the dive?  This is a site for all.  I shouldn't be excluded by these attitudes just because I happen to be asking a question about software!  I want to push myself further and to do that I need advice from people who have already done the dives.  It is critical that I get that advice - I shouldn't be attacked on this site every time I happen to state what I am aspiring to and look for advice.  It's shameful.  I have done nothing fantastic and nothing that any diver couldn't do - I really don't think it's a big deal and I'm still not happy with it.  I am a perfectionist by nature and I have to keep achieving, that is something I cannot change - should I be persecuted on this site every time I ask a question?  I came back in the hope that I could be accepted here. It really is a shame that I can't be.

 

[MATTBIN]

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AnneMarie, ever thought you might have outgrown this particular forum. As most are recreational divers we cannot advise you, perhaps you should find a more technical site. I should have thought the Inspiration users would have been your best bet. I say this not because I want you to leave but because I believe you are beyond help here. If that insults any of the more experienced here I am sorry as its not meant to, but how many on here dive to 100+m on an RB. There is very little knowledge of the physiological effects in that type of diving and I would suggest its not on here anyway. There is a magazine called 550 or similar perhaps you need their help.
Take care
Matt