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wibble
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I know some of you guys dive inverted twins.  What are the major advantages of this (apart from being able to switch off your own tanks).  I am thinking of inverting mine, but does that means i will have to get new hoses for everything cos it wont reach anymore?
I will also have to get a tank guard for them.
 

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Not as tall in real life
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Advantages....

Being able to perform shutdowns.  (If you can't perform them with the cylinders upright)
Performing shutdowns, fractionally quicker than a non inverted rig.
Possibly reduction in entanglement as first stages at the bottom.

Disadvantages...

Might need custom hoses (Although some people get away with almost standard hoses.
More expensive, if you factor in custom hoses, valve guards.
possible inability to detect a slight leak as the sight of the leak maybe too far away from your ears  
 (Personally I am not convinced, but then I don't have super DIR hearing anyway, but thought it should be added for completeness).


Firsty,  I would suggest you try with the cylinders upright and see if you can perform shutdowwns (Dave Willo's the man for advice on this).  If you can then great.

If you decide to go inverts, theen yes a valve guard is a good idea (If not a absolute neccessity).  I have a long hose on my primary and a custom hose as a LP inflator, but you can get away with a standadr LP hose if you route it under the arm and into the power inflator.

Cheers,
Daz
 

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<font color='#810541'>In my opinion there is no reason to invert unless due to some physical dissability you cannot perform a shutdown. Shutdowns need to be continually practised and advice sought from more experienced divers untill they are slick.

Once they are slick they are as quick as inverted. If inverting appeals to you then go for it but I can't see any benefits. Don't be put off by not being able to do shutdowns, initially we are all crap at them, just keep practicing.
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Phil Ennis @ Nov. 24 2003,00:09)]In my opinion there is no reason to invert unless due to some physical dissability you cannot perform a shutdown. Shutdowns need to be continually practised and advice sought from more experienced divers untill they are slick.

Once they are slick they are as quick as inverted. If inverting appeals to you then go for it but I can't see any benefits. Don't be put off by not being able to do shutdowns, initially we are all crap at them, just keep practicing.
Pretty much ALL navy divers around the world disagree with you. The designers of the Inspiration disagree with you and so do I. I have no disability that I am aware off and I can JUST shut down on a conventional rig but it is slow and awkward and I wouldn’t like to attempt it in a panic or narked. I chose a slob knob to overcome the problem but Inverts goes one better IMHO.

Like a lot of things in life, just because it’s easy for you don’t think others can do it. I only do a mere avg 100 dives a year and I only practice shut downs  ohhhhhhhhhh about 100 times a year and I cant do it. I have had some really good divers attempt to alter my rig to enable me to reach my valves but the long and short of it is I have a big chest and short arms so its always way to slow.

Inverts are a great way to dive but have the kitting up hassle and the modified hose hassle. They are the only down sides I can think of.

ATB

Mark Chase
 

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wibble
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]In my opinion there is no reason to invert unless due to some physical dissability you cannot perform a shutdown
I have got short arms (to match my short arse. hoho thought i would get there before you lot did).  I cant physically reach the valves myself to switch them off, but then they are independent cylinders.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ Nov. 24 2003,18:48)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] (Phil Ennis @ Nov. 24 2003,00:09)]In my opinion there is no reason to invert unless due to some physical dissability you cannot perform a shutdown. Shutdowns need to be continually practised and advice sought from more experienced divers untill they are slick.

Once they are slick they are as quick as inverted. If inverting appeals to you then go for it but I can't see any benefits. Don't be put off by not being able to do shutdowns, initially we are all crap at them, just keep practicing.
Pretty much ALL navy divers around the world disagree with you. The designers of the Inspiration disagree with you and so do I. I have no disability that I am aware off and I can JUST shut down on a conventional rig but it is slow and awkward and I wouldn’t like to attempt it in a panic or narked. I chose a slob knob to overcome the problem but Inverts goes one better IMHO.

Like a lot of things in life, just because it’s easy for you don’t think others can do it. I only do a mere avg 100 dives a year and I only practice shut downs  ohhhhhhhhhh about 100 times a year and I cant do it. I have had some really good divers attempt to alter my rig to enable me to reach my valves but the long and short of it is I have a big chest and short arms so its always way to slow.

Inverts are a great way to dive but have the kitting up hassle and the modified hose hassle. They are the only down sides I can think of.

ATB

Mark Chase
<font color='#810541'>So have you inverted Mark? I wasn't aware that you had!

I have never met anyone yet who cannot shut down as long as the rig is corectly set up and the undersuit or drysuit are not restricting them.

You must have very short arms or I suspect a suit that is restricting you.

If someone genuinely cannot then yes invert because you have to be able to shutdown or you shouldn't be diving the rig.

Before you inverted did you have 3 slob knobs  
 

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Why should you invert? Because you will have tried both methods and found inverted to be YOUR preference and no-one elses. Everyone has opinion as to why their method is BETTER. Ignore them and try both and decide for yourself.
 

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Im my opinion I can see no logic in persevering with a method which is difficult (shutdowns on upright tanks) when there is an easier solution that doesn't require you to practice stretching or suchlike, or to buy a new drysuit as Davey Willo found he had to. Doesn't matter if I haven't practived my shutdowns for months, they're slick all the time.

Put it this way, on the Deco Proc course the Instructors didn't bother trying to turn my air off as you would expect on this course, when I asked why the reply was "What's the point, you're checking your valves every couple of minutes all throughout the dive...  And it really is that easy to do I often find myself going: check computer, check valves, nil problemo
The peace of mind it gives me is priceless, how's that for a reason
 

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<font color='#000F22'>See what you've started now Steve. You have incurred the wrath of the Dales.

It'll be the "avoiding speargun" speciality next!

On the inverts thing - I've never used 'em  - but many of my chums use am and are very happy and safe.

Personal preference is where it's at.

Too often I've seen guys with manifolds without the ability to turn valves EVERY time. I hope they stay lucky.
 

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wibble
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
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Yeah, a guy in my club reckons he can do some weird Karma sutra type move with his arms (one underneath one over the top) and manage to isolate them.  Like to see him do it at 40m narked outta his box pissing air out everywhere.  Can you tell i dont like this individual?
 

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<font color='#0000FF'>Prog ....

Sounds like ya a short arsed stumpy git , like me ..

i was trained andbought up on inverts and indie's ,,,,,,,,, i would advise you that if u was to go into twin sets is to , Twin 7's Invert and Indie....

Ya never look back

Andy
 

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<font color='#FF0000'>is there any where that says you cant do TDI deco and exteneded range on indies???

im planning to do it next summer but i cant afford a twin set, i borrow school cylinders for twinset dives, and how many stages do you need??

cheers guys

chris
 

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wibble
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
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I just did my advanced nitrox on twin indie 10's with a 3l pony.  i just bought a 3l pony and a 7l stage to give me max flexibility with my choice of bottle.  I also have a 12l hanging about as it was with my 1st set of gear.

I thought about 7s, and i could just go an buy another one, and have another twinset........or get another 12 and have another twinset.....but i can hear my credit card starting to hum at the thought of it...hehe
 

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That's Dude with an E
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (cthomas @ Nov. 24 2003,21:37)]is there any where that says you cant do TDI deco and exteneded range on indies???
My TdI instructror would accept indies, as long as you could still operate the valves.
One guy on our AD nitrox/Deco was using a single & pony.
 

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A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Phil Ennis @ Nov. 24 2003,19:31)]
[b said:
Quote[/b] ]So have you inverted Mark? I wasn't aware that you had!
No if you read my post you will see I went for the slob knob, but I admit that inverts are better than the slob knob. I have also given serious thought to inverts.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I have never met anyone yet who cannot shut down as long as the rig is correctly set up and the under suit or drysuit are not restricting them.
Really? I have met loads. Including one chap who nearly killed himself by running out of gas. Only difference was he thought he could do normal shut downs. He was very bent but lucky to be alive after ascending from 50m and totally running out at 15m. Rob Evans was on that boat trip ask him.

If you meet me I would be only too pleased to demonstrate how crap I am at it. With two stages on it becomes ridiculously slow.

I haven’t had the spare cash or the opportunity to try loads of different under suits and dry suits to see if that made any difference. Like most divers I chose a well-known suit and bought that one in what the makers said was the right size for the figures I sent them.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]You must have very short arms or I suspect a suit that is restricting you.
I am 5'10" and have a 32 waste and 44 chest. Unlike GI3 I am unfortunately less Action man and more Quasimodo. I find shut downs hard work in a 5mm semi dry so I doubt if a different dry suit will help.


[b said:
Quote[/b] ]If someone genuinely cannot then yes invert because you have to be able to shutdown or you shouldn't be diving the rig.
That old chestnut

So how many of you can shut down your single tanks? Not many I bet and yet you can still dive the rig??  This standard shut down comment is just bullshit. I did conventional shut downs for my Trimix course. I couldn’t believe they would pass me having taken soooooooo long to shut down conventionally but they did.

Release waste buckle hoik up tank, grab knob shut down, jeeeeez what a waste of time. Two turns of the slob knob swap regs and ascend to gas switch. Much quicker. Faff about trying to shut the reg down once the situation is under control.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]Before you inverted did you have 3 slob knobs  
No you don’t need three just one and independent bail out gas or enough gas in any one tank at any time in the dive to get you safely to the surface.

I do know a chap who used three slob knobs to pass his Trimix course and I did see a diver using two slob knobs on his independent 12s.

Difference is you see a numptie and I see someone who has carried out a risk assessment and implemented a safety protocol to minimise the risk. I would rather diver with either diver than someone who refuses to admit a problem and dives a conventional rig to be fashion conscious

Ask your self this question Phil. If I could do it with a little rig adjustment and practice and I could do it as quickly and safely as I can with my slob knob (or if I chose, with an invert rig) don’t you think I would?

Mark Chase
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (DALESDIVER @ Nov. 24 2003,19:44)]Be aware of who is around you steve>>>>>>>>>>>

your time might come when you least expect it
Well thats it - no way will I ever be buddying you Steve, especially is Mr Hayhurst is in the same county. That comment amounts to a challenge in his books ...
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (DALESDIVER @ Nov. 24 2003,19:44)]Be aware of who is around you steve>>>>>>>>>>>

your time might come when you least expect it
Lawks a  lordy!  Me and my big mouth, I've really gorn and done it now, eh...?   Next time I'm training the newbies in the lakes could be a bit paranoid


Andy, you're stealthy enough on open circuit, I can only try to imagine what you're like on  CCR  
 
Perhaps I should sign up for my trimix next year and get the ordeal out of the way  


Ah well, if I'm not as good as I claim then at least  it's been a good run, can't complain at my age  I suppose...
Who wants first dibs on my rig then  
 
Chee-az
Steevil   This seems appropriate under the circumstances...  
 

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<font color='#810541'>Hello Mark, I am not going to turn this into a long drawn out affair...... but.

Sorry I can't multiple quote so bear with me.

I did read your post about the slob knob, I was having a little dig (all in the best possible taste).

As far as knowing loads of people who can't shut down, OK, that must be a southern thing
 that was a joke by the way.

Why on earth would you want to shut down a single
 if it free flows you are breathing off the free flowing reg to the surface, or better still swap over to your pony. The sad thing is that being the smart arse that I am I can actually shutdown a single
 totally useless skill, somebody will no doubt disagree.

Not having a go, just interested but why do you have a manifold? The way you dive you can only shutdown the isolater so why not just dive indies, or is the manifold a fashion statement
 another joke.

I look forward to meeting you at Capernwray at the weekend, which day are you there? I missed you last time when you were there playing with the inspiration.

It would be very boring if we all thought the same way and not anywhere near as amusing.
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ Nov. 25 2003,00:21)]Difference is you see a numptie and I see someone who has carried out a risk assessment and implemented a safety protocol to minimise the risk. I would rather diver with either diver than someone who refuses to admit a problem and dives a conventional rig to be fashion conscious
<font color='#810541'>I don't see a numptie at all, I see somebody who hasn't been trained properly and shown the alternatives. Or somebody who is just mistakenly taking the easy way out.

Let's not bring fashion statements into the conventional rig thing. More shiny toys to buy if you invert!

Thread name:  Why SHOULD I invert.

Answer: No reason at all, Unless XYZ. Or you just like the idea, whatever.

 
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