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I am asking for advice on whether to get a BCD or twin 7's and wing.

I know there's a variety of threads going on, but I wanted to be a bit more specific.

About me: Ocean Diver in Mauritius, so warm water only for the foreseeable future, 21 dives so far, max depth more than 20 less than 30 (ahem) looking to be Sports Diver as soon as a training programme allows.

About diving here, BSAC club (don't like the tourist dive centres much), all bcds and single 12 or a15l, not a pony in sight, and twins are strictly the "Jack and Jill" variety.

I have searched the site and read already:
Mark Davies wondering about 7's or Y fronts, sorry pillars
Dominic's site, which should be made required reading
Andy Deux-bouteilles, as they say here, who went the way of the wing
Digger - who I suspect takes his rig to bed with him just so he can tell the lads down the pub that he slept with the twins again last night (
 
)
Someone else who reckons that wings are no good for kneeling on the bottom of the sea

some say that beginners shouldn't begin with a wing, let alone a twinset, while others adopt the ninja approach of chuck 'em in the water - if they drown we can always have more kids.

Having thought about all this I came to the view, probably, that I wanted isolated manifold twin 232 bar 7's.

Pro's
safer - assuming a proper shutdown drill, there is redundancy in the system. Not so crucial at the depths I'm going to, but I'd rather have it than not.
better trim/attitude underwater
more comfortable and uncluttered - a "better" diving experience
more air

Con's
No-one else here that I know has this configuration so for setting up and learning I would be on my own
CBL's: people here are not trained in a cbl on someone wearing a wing. I know there's a thread around discussing this, but it doesn't fill me with confidence that my buddy might get flustered rescuing me in the event of an emergency
weight-ditching: as I understand it, for proper trim and a decent surface position, the best place for weight is on the plate and behind the cylinders. I guess this is non-ditchable. According to that useful site again,
, the only time this might be a problem is for a wet-suited diver with one source of buoyancy - like me.
weight: 7's are, according to The Source 15kg to a 12l 12-15kg. The extra weight doesn't sound a lot, but the fishermen and buddies who haul it back into the boat are likely to give me grief, and I don't like grief when I'm diving.

Now I thought that I'd got all this under control. Then today I read a thread suggesting that divers shouldn't run off and get a twin-set without proper training and that too many go off and do it too soon and for the wrong reasons.

I can't get training here, and I can't even try someone else's rig, 'cos I'd be the first.

So am I a muppet, in which case can I be Rowlf, would it be a worthwhile compromise to have BCD and twin 7's or am I thinking on the right lines in looking for wing and twinset?



tas
 

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[b said:
Quote[/b] ]No-one else here that I know has this configuration so for setting up and learning I would be on my own
That's what forums on the Net are for - nobody I know uses twins and a wing, so I found out what I needed online.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]CBL's: people here are not trained in a cbl on someone wearing a wing. I know there's a thread around discussing this, but it doesn't fill me with confidence that my buddy might get flustered rescuing me in the event of an emergency
CBLs are no different with a wing. The proceedure is exactly the same.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]weight-ditching: as I understand it, for proper trim and a decent surface position, the best place for weight is on the plate and behind the cylinders. I guess this is non-ditchable
You CAN keep the weight ditchable - I did for a while, the "D-weight" system. These days I keep it bolted in place, but you can set your weight between cylinders and still ditchable.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]the only time this might be a problem is for a wet-suited diver with one source of buoyancy - like me
Take a lift bag/SMB and reel - voila, a redundant source of buoyancy.
There's nothing says ALL weight has to live on the plate - I keep some of mine on my waist strap, for instance. Even if you do bolt the majority of your lead to your plate, you can keep some ditchable.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]weight: 7's are, according to The Source 15kg to a 12l 12-15kg. The extra weight doesn't sound a lot, but the fishermen and buddies who haul it back into the boat are likely to give me grief
Don't worry about the cylinders being heavy. Worry that the lead is bolted to it as well

When I'm on a hardboat, I carry the kit out myself.
On a RHIB, a buddy hauls it up, sure enough, but I push on it from below so he doesn't have to take all the weight - so it's no real problem either way.

[b said:
Quote[/b] ]I read a thread suggesting that divers shouldn't run off and get a twin-set without proper training
True. But you can self-train. So long as you know what you need to be able to do (Hint: Shutdowns!) and practice doing them until you find them easy, you'll be fine.
 

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I can't see any reason why you shouldn't get twin 7s and a wing if that is what you fancy, 2x7 + BCD is an equally valid choice. FMPOV, Stab jacket easy to get used to, definately more user friendly for the inexperienced, but more limiting in the long run (plus never liked the fixed pockets, waste of time for me)
Wing: extremly versatile but really only for those people who get a kick from playing around with kit and configuration, definately not for the "click click wash and go I'm outta here" contingent

I'd suggest getting someone to at least let you try a wing first because an experienced DM pal of mine tried one for a couple of months and hated it and went back to a Stab. I still have, for the moment, the main proportion of my weight as ditchable even though it should never be necessary as I have 3 sources of buoyancy (wing, suit and dSMB)
Chee-az
steve
 

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tell you what tas.  pay my air fare and I'll bring out my gear for you to try FREE!!!!!

can't say fairer than that...
 

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I have done a bit of diving in a wing, twinset and wetsuit and for that reason got a double bladder wing which gives you redundant lift. A lot of people don't like them (esp DIR crowd) but I've been very happy with mine. So far I've kept all my weight ditchable - not much in a wetsuit.
 

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My tu'pence.....

Twin 7s and a wing - feel the freedom and not as heavy as tabbing round the gaff in twin 12s. Good luck and let us know how ya get on.
 

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<font color='#000F22'>Twin sevens in a a wetsuit ...  fan-bloody-tastic

no weightbelt needed I'd hazzard.

Twins provide you with a separate air source (do the drill etc)and I'd much rather having some redundancy on every dive. Blue water or not.

I've got twin 12s and 7s - would I every go back to diving singles? not if I could help it.

The wing would be more adaptable but there's nothing wrong with using a stabby with twin 7s.

The only issue for me at the moment is if I'll risk using my little Halcyon Pioneer (36) with the sevens cos it's designed for singles ... I'll let you know.
 

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Right, my various comments on muppets and twins do not relaly apply to you, because you've had a lot more sense than the jack-in-the-box setups that have pooped up near me recently. You're on YD, asking all the right questions. Good start.

I think you've got the start you need, and from there I'm sure you'll find that, even on your own, you'll get the twins sorted. You might want to think about twin bladder wings with your wetsuit diving, but in a drysuit I'd stay away. I find them much more hassle than you need, and much more redundancy then you need to dive dry. You don't have that, so maybe consider it. Personally, I don't see an SMB as a redundant source of buoyancy. At all. Sorry Dom.

Don't worry about ditchable weight, neither. Not a problem. Don't have any now. In fact, don't have any weight at all, except the tanks and backplate.

Anyone should be able to CBL you in a wing. A decent buddy check should sort that. If they can't CBL a diver in a wing, they probably shoudn't be leading groups, and they can also use their buoyancy to lift you if it's extreme. Proper prior planning...

Twina re fine for kneeling on the bottom. Anyoe who tells you otherwise has either problems with their poture or hasn't spent a long time kneeling on the bottom. If you'r edoing drills, you can do those completely negative (ie no air in the system, so no problems) or you can do them neutral (ie some air in the wing and you're fin-tips on the bottom doing drills, in wihch case you're probably not going to be kneeling anyway) I've never had a problem. Others might, but I reckon I can sort that with playing with trim a bit. Easy.
 

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Thanks all.

Andy - I'm working on that cheap flight, anyone know the number for Taliban Air, should be able to get a good deal with them.

tas
 

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forget taliban air!!!!  i'll arrange a Herc drop instead...
 

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Twin sets are cool and well balanced. Weight shouldent be and issue because you would have a pony with your single 15ltr wouldent you


I have never noticed a problem kneeling on the bottom with my wing, my only problem was dumping all the air which took a leaning head back aproach to perfect.

Only down side with twins is the additional initial cost and srevicing charges.

Double bladder wings are OK for redundant lift or you could use a self inflating lift bag. (personaly I think I would stick with the double bladder.)

My weight can not be ditched and I dont want it to be. Hitting the surface at speed is not a good thing and you cant flood a wet suit so I cant think of a need to ever dump weight to get up.

ATB

Mark Chase
 

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Hi

Am I the only guy who thinks that you don't need a twinset for Mauritius ? A BSAC ocean diver restricted to 20 metres. Even with Sports diver max depth is 35mtrs. I daresay trimix (even nitrox) is not as readily available as in the UK. Renting cylinders is commonplace and diveboats plentiful.

My opinion/recommendation is to get hold of a pioneer 27lb wing and steel backplate. Rig it with a AL80 and 5ft long hose reg setup.

With a 5mm wetsuit you may need 6kg on your weightbelt.

Pros: You will be perfectly horizontal in the water and therefore your air consumption will improve as will your buoyancy, you won't have to carry heavy twinsets about, you don't have to buy any cylinders, just rent AL80's which will enable you to do three dives a day if you wish, you don't have to educate your buddies with any new procedures, and with a little experience you will happily dive for an hour on an AL80 so why have 14 litres of gas on your back.

Cons: Its not a twinset so you can't be called a technical diver
Less redundancy meaning better buddy skills although with the warm clear water and shallow depths this makes little difference.

Many divers on YD dive twins and so therefore it is natural for new divers to want to try them out, and the active forum members are all eager to help people convert to twins, but it is not necessarily the most practical answer. I recently dived for two weeks in the Red Sea and I would never dream of diving a twinset with that kind of diving, totally unneccessary in my opinion. I only dive a twinset in readiness for diving the 50-60m trimix dives that are dived in the UK. If I was happy diving to sports diver depths I'd use a single 12 (without a pony
) and I still do sometimes as its just not neccessary for that type of diving IMO. Twins are hard work, and thats the truth. You have some of the best diving in the world, enjoy it. We're all jealous

Hope that helps

Andy
 

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Take a look at my Avtar,

Twin 12s in the Red Sea. Problem? What problem?  I rig them up and do two one hour dives on the same twin set. If you are boat diving it dosent matter if you are using a twin set. If you are rib diving or shore diving  obviously it does but you are only on twin 7's so even that is not an issue.

As a friend once said, you can never have too much gas.

ATB

Mark Chase
 

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Hi

Mark, how did I know that you would be the next guy to post ? You had your say and I have had mine. Why do you constantly feel the need to disagree? All it does is take the thread off topic.

I did 41 dives over the two week holiday (yes I do more than two dives a day) and when I got back I had a day at Farnes with the twin 12's. The difference in the water is significant. They are heavier, bulkier, slower to turn and create more drag. You've still got to climb out of the water with them and carry them to your car. If you want to do three dives you need a fill or perhaps even three sets of twin 7's. And everyone else is diving singles and he's diving to a max depth of 20 mtrs in some of the clearest water in the world. Handling singles is easier, I'm amazed that you're arguing the contrary. (not amazed that you're arguing
) Twins are for when your dive plan requires more gas using the rule of thirds and adequate redundancy for the conditions.

"You can never have too much gas". Course you can, don't be silly
You're quoting out of context. Next time I'm planning a 15 mtr bimble at the hoppers in Farnes I'll take some twin 20's yeah thats a practical solution, oh and don't forget the twin stages LOL

Plan your dive and dive your plan
Rule of thirds, thats your gas plan.

Kindest Regards

Andy
 

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I reckon singles might do it, but there will come a time when they won't. I good suggestion, especially if you're going to rent tanks, is to get some buddy twinning bands, and you can twin when you need/want to, and you can chuck the singles through the easy dives.

I find in a wetsuit I can do twin 10s pretty easy, as I'm much more flexible and less restricted than drysuit diving. Of course, diving a single 12 in a shortie is heaven for me, the freedom is just the daddy, IMO. The simplicity, too, is second to none.

I don't think Mark's argung for the sake of his, it's just his opinion is different. If you're both on the boards at the same time, he's going to be posting, surely? It might be that he's just doing it to troll a bit, but I'd be surprised, as that's not normal for Chasey. Unless Vic's around!!!
 

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Even in clear, warm water I would now think twice about going on a single without a pony to depths of 20-30m.  I think alot of people are coming around to the idea of taking redundancy with them to warm climates as the prevailing attitude in such places are that it isn't needed, and UK divers get complacent when faced with endless viz and wetsuits!

Maybe twins are going to be more difficult to manage logistically in Mauritius than here, where we are more used to them, but a redundant air source is no less valid, so I will fall between the two stools and say that a wing, a single and a pony may be the more practical option!

And I welcome any disagreements....rahter than take a thread off track, surely they keep it alive?

Cheers all

Lou
 

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mark/andy - it's good to have 2 viewpoints. They're both useful and, in fact, agree on one important question I was asking about - wing or BC.

In fact, that seems to be almost unanimous. I would be interested to hear from anyone who has tried a wing and didn't like it. [edit: just been over to Lou's thread re wings and fings. Doh! wish I'd spotted that first.]

The point of difference is on whether a twin-set at all. Andy, your points about clear warm water, shallow depths, predominance of singles are all absolutely right but still seem to me to go to the heart of the question.

Yes, my buddy is my redundancy, yes we should be arms length apart at all times, I know, we all know but is that going to happen 100% of the time? With 30m viz, and a sense of relaxation in tropical waters, you just know that at some point my buddy will just pootle over to a nearby rock to see if that really is an octopus while I'm desperately trying to work out if that stone-fish is, well, just a stone after all, and at that moment, I'm going to be out of air.

What happens next (assuming I haven't just let the tanks run dry in which case everyone calls me a f**kwit). On singles I've got to get his attention, get over to him and get air. With a pony, I change regs. With a twin-set I change regs. Problem over, isn't it? And I don't want to go down the solo diving route. I just can't see it happening: I like diving with others I like the buddy system and I like the additional safety - I just want to add another layer of caution in. I'm a risk-averse kind of guy.

So if I'm carrying a pony around with me, why not carry a system that will allow me both that air and that safety?

Then there is the future to consider. OK I don't yet have delusions of diving at 60m, as you can imagine, here there's enough to see at 6m, but maybe one day...Isn't it better to start out with a method which progresses naturally and easily to the next stage: i.e. bimbling on 7's, deeper and longer with deco on 10's/12's, into trimix, stages, ooojamaflips and wotnot if that's what does it for you?

And the 14 litres would be useful: we already frequently are in the water on 12's up to nearly an hour. I'm not bad on air, but not fab either (my wife doesn't seem to breathe much, I wonder if that's because it normally interrupts her talking
) and the extra time would be handy.

more thoughts "monsieur laitue" please. I am listening!



tas
 

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My two pence - I happily dive UK conditions with a 15 and a pony down to 35m (nitrox). I'm usually down there at least as long as the twinset lads on the boat, not least cause the slack is over long before my gas supply! I have dived twins, both manifolded and independant and will be buying twin twelves at the dive show (or sooner if I can get a really good deal - hint, hint) but for now very happy with the setup.
 

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Hi all

Bit of a redundancy thing then, i dived for 8 years on a single 15, no pony. I carry a pony on it now, but if i had a problem with it i would be quite happy without it to 35m on a wreck, subject to who my buddy is.

When on Hol i dive a single 12, no pony, no concern. Each to their own. Below 35-40m no chances taken, lots of redundancy.

What i do find though is that redundancy induces confidence, that improves consumption and increases the dive enjoyment.

Agree with WL, you can have too much air, but hey, no-one ever died of it! Got a few hernias maybe.

Have to go with Marks philosophy though, total redundancy and independance has got to be the way to go, subject to the type of diving you are doing.

Dive Safe

Paul
 
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