YD Scuba Diving Forums banner

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

·
Just not enough dive time.
Joined
·
9,135 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Imported post

Following my recent change in employment I can now dive mid-week, occasionaly, without it impacting my wage packet, 3 cheers for that.
So off I trotted to Wraysbury with Andrew (Abucks) and a very pleasant day out it was too.
Main reason for the dive was to experiment with the new wing and get some idea of what weight I should be carrying as I havent really done a positive check for some time.

First dive went really well, we could see for miles, well yards, several of them. aided I suspect by the complete lack of anybody else on site, very different from Stoney. Andrew kindly escorted me around the pond and I was truly amazed at his nav skills, brilliant in a word. He apologised for missing the aimed for exit point, yeah by about 6 feet!!!  

I'd have missed it by a bit more.
We saw virtually everything there was to see, including a couple of very nice perch early on and then the static stuff, boats etc. Andrew guided me brilliantly and as we spent most of the dive at one depth my bouyancy was fine, more of that later. The wing had virtually no gas in it so it was all down to the dry suit and new shoulder valve (Apex original style). No serious problems except I am now sure I dont like my long hose (5ft ish) as no matter how I route it it pulls at my mouth.
As we prepared to exit, after surfacing, the 2nd stage started to free flow, it does this very easily when out of the mouth. I could not shut it off, so I used the pony. Now I know 8m is hardly pony depth but I wanted to check weight and I always dive in the same trim and I was very pleased to have it on board at this time.
Second dive I was all over the place with my bouyancy, as soon as we rose slightly I struggled to stay down, the valve just wouldnt dump fast enough. I understand at low depth any change really magnifies poor control but I havent been this bad for ages, no honestly. Prior to the dive I bunged an extra 2 kg in the belt, at home, to be sure of being negative. I summised that the extra weight was really to blame as I would be carrying too much gas in the suit to compensate.
Saw a pike who looked very mean and very healthy plus the bus, again great nav skills by Andrew.
At the end of the dive Andrew helped me to get my weight a bit more accurate, I dropped 5kg, in stages, off the belt!!
Whilst he acted as safety diver, having told me he wanted to abort the dive as he was cold, much appreciated his help was too.

The wing was fine, hardly used it at all though to be honest, I put a different 2nd stage onto the first stage, on a shorter hose and was much more comfortable, will play with the hoses again next time out, maybe put the long hose on the secondary dv, or drop it completely.

Full marks to Andrew for all his help and not moaning too much about being cold or the fact I scooted off a bit quick at the end as I had to pick my son up, apologies for that or that he kept having to look to the surface to find me on occasion.

Matt
 

·
Grumbler-chief in Residence
Joined
·
1,969 Posts
Imported post

Hi Matt,

I know this is going to be a switch, but, if you get chance try the same dive but control it on the wing instead of the suit. One of my first discoveries when I switched to a wing was that it is far more effective than the suit and once you get used to it, much easier.

Take care

Andrew
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,240 Posts
Imported post

Agree completely with AndyP,

Matt, try putting only enough gas in the suit to take the squeeze off yer nads mate, all other buoyancy is controlled by the wing. Try leaving your shoulder-dump fully open for the duration of the dive (something I never used to do) so that if you need to dump air from the suit, all you have to do is drop yer right shoulder and raise your left: hey-presto, you lose only as much gas from suit as you want to without drastically increasing squeeze hence remaining comfortable.

This will be, as it was for me (I learnt to fly the suit when I first learnt to to dive with a BC and dry-bag, only using the BC for things like flooded-suit drills and at the surface to take the strain off the suit), a bit of a methodology change for you, but as Andy rightly says, you should find that your diving becomes much more controlled and a darn sight easier - you will probably find also that your air consumption reduces (longer dive too) as there is far less volume to fill and air-space in a wing in which to pump gas (only having to dump it later in the dive at some stage) for gas to travel; it also reduces (using the wing as opposed to the suit) the chances of gas travelling to your legs/feet which could result in an inversion and/or feet-first rapid ascent.

I guess you've already got used to the fact that a wing makes your diving less 'encumbered' in that you don't have all that BC-frontage to deal with.

Hope that helps mate and dive safe.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,786 Posts
Imported post

I know you won't want to hear this Matt after you've invested in it an all but you really should swap your 5' for a 7' hose, if it's pulling your mouth then it's too short, this is a regular problem with the 5' and some peoples builds.
 

·
Just not enough dive time.
Joined
·
9,135 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Imported post

Cheers guys for that info, I have had a go at controlling the dives previously using the BC and would agree entirely with your observations. During dive 2 I did push some gas into the wing having opened up the shoulder dump a bit, but I felt as though the wing was more difficult to dump than the suit. Ho hum, one step forward two steps back with any new kit I suppose. I do like the feel of the wing though in what Bren says so I shall persevere with it. In fact I cant wait to get wet again and have another go at getting it better. I am absolutely sure the extra 5Kg didnt help at all, I reckon I could lose another Kg and still be weighted OK for freshwater.

Dave, I sort of came to that conclusion as well, oh well at least I have a ready made recepticle for my rejected kit, my son!

Matt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
Imported post

Sorry to disagree with a couple of you others but:
1) if Matt is properly weighted, the amount of air needed to prevent suit squeeze should be just sufficient to make him neutrally buoyant using a single cylinder and pony. He shouldn't need to use his BC for buoyancy. If he does, he's wearing too much lead.
2) A five foot hose shouldn't pull at his mouth if properly routed. I've used one for the last hundred or so dives without problems. Matt, how did you route the hose? Mine goes under my right arm, across my chest, over my left shoulder, round the back of my neck and into my mouth from the right side.
 

·
Just not enough dive time.
Joined
·
9,135 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Imported post

John
1) Agree - I reckon I am/was overweighted, in the Farnes I used the BC very little to adjust bouyancy. I added a couple of Kilos prior to the Wraysbury dive, just to be sure. That coupled with changing from Sea to Fresh meant I was overweighted and that's why I needed the extra oomph in the suit/wing but I think the overweighting, by so much, caused the dump to behave badly, it wasnt fully open either. Lesson learnt - use the right amount of lead!
2) I have tried your routing and it pulls, I also routed it from the LH side of the 1st stage under left arm, around back of head and into mouth, didnt like either routing to be honest. I replaced it on dive 2 with a traditional shorter hose and it felt fine. Maybe I'll put it on the occy or maybe I'll have another go and see if I can sort it out.

Matt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,557 Posts
Imported post

Matt,

I wonder if the different routing (ie having a tight radius around the back of the head, rather than a large loop out from first stage to mouth with a trad hose) is causing the feeling of pulling?  So that rather than being too tight it just feels odd?

I can imagine that with a stiff, new hose it could be quite uncomfortable.  I can't see any marked size difference between you and John that would explain it pulling, as such.

I dunno, still thinking about long hose mesel'

Cheers

Lou
 

·
Just not enough dive time.
Joined
·
9,135 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Imported post

Having routed it in two different ways, I have to say I think its too short for me, maybe I have bigger muscles than John and you didnt notice.  
 Or a fatter neck!

I am also wondering if the reason I am having trouble with my second stage is down to the longer hose, I'll swap the hoses and have a test session somewhere.

Matt
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
Imported post

Matt: Could it just be that the tank was mounted too low in the wing, i.e. the upper camband was a few inches too high?
Lou: Try an ocean longhose (= 150 cm = 5 ft hose) if you can. I honestly see no reason to use a 7 ft (= 210 cm) hose for ordinary ocean diving. It's just more hose to stow.
 

·
Just not enough dive time.
Joined
·
9,135 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Imported post

Nope, the tank was set so that the cam band (top) just grabbed the tank before it started to 'round-off' and I could still feel the valve poking me in the back of the head!!

Nice idea though, I still reckon its the muscles John

Matt
 

·
Not as tall in real life
Joined
·
4,059 Posts
Imported post

I use a 5ft hose on a single on occasions and occasionally it seems to creep back towards the tank and pull a bit.  A quick tug on the hose (oh er missus) seems to solve the problem.

Daz
 

·
A short fat well off crap cave diver. Likes wrecks
Joined
·
15,343 Posts
Imported post

I noticed Chris Bordman had a omny swivel on his long hose. It looked very comfortable and I will give it a go to see how it feels. I hate the reg being pulled out of my mouth feeling and I get that too sometimes

ATB

Mark Chase
 

·
Not as tall in real life
Joined
·
4,059 Posts
Imported post

I used to use one of these LP swivels on my primary.  It definitely reduced any feeling of the hose pulling.  

Just one word of warning,  check them often, in my experience they have a habit of becoming loose where the  swivel joint is.  Pretty easy to tighten up though.

Daz
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
Imported post

[b said:
Quote[/b] (MATTBIN @ Oct. 31 2003,17:52)]Nope, the tank was set so that the cam band (top) just grabbed the tank before it started to 'round-off' and I could still feel the valve poking me in the back of the head!!

Nice idea though, I still reckon its the muscles John

Matt
So what happens if you move the camband up or down an inch or two? The hose really shouldn't pull at your mouth if you get it routed right. Regarding muscles, my "stomach muscles" are admittedly somewhat more developed than yours, Matt, but otherwise we're about the same size, I'd say.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,314 Posts
Imported post

Another thought, Matt: Are you sure the shoulder and waist straps are tight enough? With a wing BC, it is very important that they fit snugly so that your cylinder is close to your back and always in the midline of your body regardless of your position in the water. At first, they may feel a bit TOO tight on land. If your cylinder is a bit skew-whiff, it will pull on your reg hose, of course.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,476 Posts
Imported post

<font color='#000080'>Matt,
Thanks for all the nice words


Yes, I felt that the first dive was one of the best I've ever had at Wraysbury! We didn't get to see all the stuff they have in there... we missed the two taxis, at least two other boats and a few other bits and pieces.

If I'm totally honest, my navigation on the second dive wasn't quite what I'd planned  
(but then, if I'd have got it "right", we wouldn't have seen the pike
)

Anyway, no worries about shooting off quickly... if I'd have remembered my mask when I left home the first time, we'd have been in the water at least 1/2 hour earlier, and we could have had a more relaxed "packing up and natter!"

Out of interest, my SAC came out at 23 for both dives... I'd say that as our air seemed to be used up at the same rate (until your free-flow), then yours was probably similar...

Thanks for a top afternoon,
abucks
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
3,293 Posts
Imported post

[b said:
Quote[/b] (Mark Chase @ Oct. 31 2003,17:17)]I noticed Chris Bordman had a omny swivel on his long hose. It looked very comfortable and I will give it a go to see how it feels. I hate the reg being pulled out of my mouth feeling and I get that too sometimes
<font color='#000080'>Hi

He had a what? Oh dear!

Sometimes the 5ft hose is too short when you have all your drysuit and stuff on. Depends on the person. I use one on holiday and in the pool, and its fine with wetsuit. You might also find that the five foot hose routing sometimes interferes with the backup reg or your drysuit inflate. I find it a PITA when I wear it with drysuit (which I did on my BSAC OWI course) A seven foot hose (not 2mtrs) routes cleaner and when deployed gives you a lot more space to get your sh*t together.

Those omni swivel things will make little difference as the hose does not 'kink' when routed properly. And its just another thing to go wrong.

Andy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
559 Posts
Imported post

Hose length, I guess it's partly what you are used to---I use the standard 7' for twin 12s, and also when using a single cylinder.
Single and twin with a cannister torch, usual route under the cannister.
Single and twin with just a UK 400 torch, the hose neatly tethers under my knife just to the left of the harness buckle.
A one hose fits all length, twins and single.
When the hose is right, the 2nd stage does not pull at all on your mouth.

Cheers, Malcolm
 
1 - 19 of 19 Posts
Top