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The guy I was referring to in my previous post was John Orlowski. John lives off a diet of coffee, beer and cigarettes, interspersed with the occasional hot dog just for the vitamins. On the other hand, he is one of the most experienced cave divers on the planet and one of the best instructors I've ever trained with (as well as being a very nice guy). He discovered Zacaton, he was a dive partner of Sheck Exley, he travels all over the US and the rest of the world doing body recoveries that no-one else will touch... Do you want to tell him he can't teach any more because of some arbitrary pool exercise?
Personally, I wouldn't use any instructor who smoked and mixed alcohol and diving. As for your praise for JO, I have seen and dove with some of his graduates, who, BTW, all think he was the greatest. I wouldn't have passed some of them just on mental attitude towards tech and cave diving. JO's biggest problem, and he is by far not alone, is that when one's main source of income comes from training there seems to be momentary lapses in what one allows. Just meet the absolute minimums and all will be fine.

To put it bluntly, I don't want a friend or buddy type training me, I want someone who will demand 110% from me. When I train divers for tech grades, they are not only knowledge trained but performance driven, beyond minimums to be sure.

Though I can still do the physical requirements at age 66, they are no longer as easy as they once were. Unfortunately, I can still out-perform most of the younger set who appear before me half my age. The TDI requirements state that I must be able to do all the required skills at any a time. I may not always agree with some of the skills, but if I want to continue to teach I have to maintain standards. They are not all that difficult if practiced from time to time.

Agreed, a very experienced and knowledgeable instructor is of paramount importance over an athlete low knowledge instructor, but standards do exist for many reasons.

Dale
 

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Correct, but it is an indication of CV fitness, which is the point, or at least i thought it was.
Well yes and no! It is a good indication of CV fitness for those particular muscle groups, but those muscle groups are not used when diving. Studies have shown that improvements in CV fitness are so specific that when a group performed endurance swimming for 1 hour, three times a week, for 10 weeks there was little or no improvement in their running VO2 max scores but there was at least an 11% increase in their swimming VO2 max scores. (vo2 max is the bodies ability to utilise oxygen and as such is a good indication of aerobic capacity).
 

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Ok Firstly. Don't edit your posts half an hour after posting :p I read the original.

Secondly. I said I can't pick out genetic heart defects. Likely Jim Fix, the guy your talking about, probably had a genetic disposition which is hard to spot.

Jim Fixx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

oh look it was genetic disposition.

I asked how you could spot a lifestyle attack.... I used an example of a guy who had a seemingly excellent lifestyle health wise, by the same token a guy with a seemingly terrible attitude to health and fitness may never have a heart attack...

So, how do you spot those who will and those who wont? Someone who eats all the pies might be genetically predisposed to not have a heart attack...

You just never can tell...


a combination of timed swimming and scuba distances to prove your dive fitness.

This is a physical job.
Dive fitness and swim fitness are not the same thing, I never swim while using dive gear.
 

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Dive without politics
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I asked how you could spot a lifestyle attack.... I used an example of a guy who had a seemingly excellent lifestyle health wise, by the same token a guy with a seemingly terrible attitude to health and fitness may never have a heart attack...

So, how do you spot those who will and those who wont? Someone who eats all the pies might be genetically predisposed to not have a heart attack...

You just never can tell...
Yip and we might all get killed when a meteor lands on our head, who can say?
 

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Well yes and no! It is a good indication of CV fitness for those particular muscle groups, but those muscle groups are not used when diving. Studies have shown that improvements in CV fitness are so specific that when a group performed endurance swimming for 1 hour, three times a week, for 10 weeks there was little or no improvement in their running VO2 max scores but there was at least an 11% increase in their swimming VO2 max scores. (vo2 max is the bodies ability to utilise oxygen and as such is a good indication of aerobic capacity).
It would therefore follow that as the main muscle groups used when diving are similar to those used when running then a running test would be a much more suitable fitness test for a diver to perform.
 

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Dive without politics
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Well yes and no! It is a good indication of CV fitness for those particular muscle groups, but those muscle groups are not used when diving. Studies have shown that improvements in CV fitness are so specific that when a group performed endurance swimming for 1 hour, three times a week, for 10 weeks there was little or no improvement in their running VO2 max scores but there was at least an 11% increase in their swimming VO2 max scores. (vo2 max is the bodies ability to utilise oxygen and as such is a good indication of aerobic capacity).
I see what you are saying, but i cant understand what the problem of using a swim test as opposed to a running test would make.

In the end both would prove a level of fitness, as a swimmer rather than a runner i would prefer, and, i feel its fairer to have a swmming type fitness test, if their was to be one.

The question was would their be a drop out of instructors, i think their would, and if you ask me the less instructors, the better.
 

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It would therefore follow that as the main muscle groups used when diving are similar to those used when running then a running test would be a much more suitable fitness test for a diver to perform.
I supose if it had to be a running test so be it, it just seems a little strange to test divers by running, when some, me, can run very well, and very little could be done to speed me up.

I supose the main thing is, should instructors be asked to prove that they have a measured level of fitness. I think we both agree on that, its just how to measure it, that we are not seeing eye to eye.
 

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I see what you are saying, but i cant understand what the problem of using a swim test as opposed to a running test would make.

In the end both would prove a level of fitness, as a swimmer rather than a runner i would prefer, and, i feel its fairer to have a swmming type fitness test, if their was to be one.

The question was would their be a drop out of instructors, i think their would, and if you ask me the less instructors, the better.
I'm sorry to labour the point but you obviously don't see what I'm saying as if we are trying to measure a level of Dive Fitness a swim test is completely inappropriate, yet you say it would be "fairer". Fairer how given that it doesn't measure an individuals Cv fitness within the correct muscle groups for diving?

Reread the finding of the study, the problem with doing a fitness test as a swim test is that it measures completely the wrong thing.

Also front crawl is such a technical stroke that if I had an hour in the pool with someone I could give them enough technique to pass a swim test, have I made them any fitter in that hour in terms of their cv fitness, no.
 

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To put it bluntly, I don't want a friend or buddy type training me, I want someone who will demand 110% from me. When I train divers for tech grades, they are not only knowledge trained but performance driven, beyond minimums to be sure.
I can't remember when it was but it's probably coming up on something like 18 years since I trained with him so I guess things have changed. It was the hardest course I've ever done, something like 5-7 dives of between 40-150min each a day for 13 days. I was absolutely shagged at the end of it. If his standards have slipped then that's really sad as he was a fantastically good instructor.

Combining smoking and drinking with diving... don't ever dive in France. It's compulsory :D
 

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Dive without politics
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Not that you have a vested interest ;)

Unfortunately I feel PADI may have the complete opposite view
Yes you are right, and if you ask me that is a huge problem.
 

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I supose if it had to be a running test so be it, it just seems a little strange to test divers by running, when some, me, can run very well, and very little could be done to speed me up.

I supose the main thing is, should instructors be asked to prove that they have a measured level of fitness. I think we both agree on that, its just how to measure it, that we are not seeing eye to eye.
I completely agree with you on the need for some measure of fitness for dive instructors. But if we are measuring it should we not be matching the fitness assessment as closely as possible to the actual fitness requirements of a diver? My only point is that a swim test doesn't adequately do this.

My own agency does a swim test and a underwater swim (by this I mean the agency with which I am qualified, I don't own the agency!) The swim test is supposedly a fitness test with the underwater swim merely a measure of ones comfort in the water.
 

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Dive without politics
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I'm sorry to labour the point but you obviously don't see what I'm saying as if we are trying to measure a level of Dive Fitness a swim test is completely inappropriate, yet you say it would be "fairer". Fairer how given that it doesn't measure an individuals Cv fitness within the correct muscle groups for diving?

Reread the finding of the study, the problem with doing a fitness test as a swim test is that it measures completely the wrong thing.

Also front crawl is such a technical stroke that if I had an hour in the pool with someone I could give them enough technique to pass a swim test, have I made them any fitter in that hour in terms of their cv fitness, no.
To be honest without seeing the report you quote, i cant really comment on its results, except to say that if we are talking about differances that can only be recorded by machines, its a bit of a moot point AFAIAC.

Which ever way you want to pitch it, doing a swim test is a measure of CV fitness, one that i am happy with.

Your comment about the front crawl is just funny, i will give you £1,000 if you can get my pal george through his DM swim test in an hour, more like a year.
 

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Not for PADI, it is a huge profit margin, they don't see that as a problem.

P.S. this is one of the reasons I left the industry....
I know, many very good instructors fall by the wayside, can't see how it will ever get better.

The whole profit margin causes huge problems with standards and sadly i dont think it will ever change.

I might leave the game, if i could do anything else well or at least as well as diving, its a real problem at times.
 

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Dive without politics
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I completely agree with you on the need for some measure of fitness for dive instructors. But if we are measuring it should we not be matching the fitness assessment as closely as possible to the actual fitness requirements of a diver? My only point is that a swim test doesn't adequately do this.

My own agency does a swim test and a underwater swim (by this I mean the agency with which I am qualified, I don't own the agency!) The swim test is supposedly a fitness test with the underwater swim merely a measure of ones comfort in the water.
What agency, NAUI?
 

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To be honest without seeing the report you quote, i cant really comment on its results, except to say that if we are talking about differances that can only be recorded by machines, its a bit of a moot point AFAIAC.

Which ever way you want to pitch it, doing a swim test is a measure of CV fitness, one that i am happy with.

Your comment about the front crawl is just funny, i will give you £1,000 if you can get my pal george through his DM swim test in an hour, more like a year.
Again you have spectacularly missed the point! I'll see if i can spell it out more simply for you.

Cardiovascular fitness is specific to the muscle groups you train.
When you swim you 90% of your forward propulsion is generated by your upper body, therefore 90% of the training effect is in your upper body.
When you dive (competently) you don't use your upper body.
Therefore an upper body fitness assessment is not as specific as it needs to be for diving instructors.

As for my swim coaching abilities, my point was that if someone was a marginal fail, that could be easily rectified by an hour or so in the pool with some front crawl technique training. As for the PADI DM tests, do you only have to complete the distance to get one point still, and you need only a certain amount of points from five disciplines? If your mate can't swim 400m he frankly has no business diving, much less applying to a course where he will be responsible for others.
 

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Again you have spectacularly missed the point! I'll see if i can spell it out more simply for you.

Cardiovascular fitness is specific to the muscle groups you train.
When you swim you 90% of your forward propulsion is generated by your upper body, therefore 90% of the training effect is in your upper body.
When you dive (competently) you don't use your upper body.
Therefore an upper body fitness assessment is not as specific as it needs to be for diving instructors.

As for my swim coaching abilities, my point was that if someone was a marginal fail, that could be easily rectified by an hour or so in the pool with some front crawl technique training. As for the PADI DM tests, do you only have to complete the distance to get one point still, and you need only a certain amount of points from five disciplines? If your mate can't swim 400m he frankly has no business diving, much less applying to a course where he will be responsible for others.
Having reread this, I seem to have come across a touch more condescending than I meant too, my apologies for that!!
 

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What happens if I don't get George through his test, do I have to give you £1000? If not I might take you up on that challenge!
 
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