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I might leave the game, if i could do anything else well or at least as well as diving, its a real problem at times.
It is not the case of diving well although no doubt you do, it is the instructing, or teaching to use another term that you no doubt do well... this is the transferable skill.

I went to driving, that went well for the best part of a decade before I lost interest and a combination of higher running costs and people starting the pathetic tactic of devaluing the local industry by undercutting each other made it less desirable than it was a few years ago.

I picked up a NVQ assessors ticket along the way, this is transferable to any area I have experience in.

Don't think of yourself as a diving instructor, you are an instructor, these are skills you should not underrate.

Me? Bored of the rat race I have made a nest for myself within the public sector, at a time when they were not taking on staff who were not already on the payroll I took a contract covering a long term sick employee, they returned and a job was created to keep me there on a permanent contract with full public sector perks and there I shall stay til retirement, TBH I already feel semi retired, I have never had it so easy, I have more free time than I know what to do with.

Do not believe your talents and experience are not transferable....
 

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The whole thing of 'an instructor who is as fit as a fiddle'... don't see any premiership coaches that can outrun and outplay their players.
So if its not the fitness side of things...
HSE and assistants take care of the instructor dropping dead...students would be looked after - the odds would be better if HSE or governing bodies insisted on loads of unfit buggers than one superhero.
so if its not that...
wtf is the problem?
Need a hero to worship and will feel cheated when you find out you are physically superior?

So - a basic "they won't drop dead tomorrow" is all that's needed.
 

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Dive without politics
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Again you have spectacularly missed the point! I'll see if i can spell it out more simply for you.

Cardiovascular fitness is specific to the muscle groups you train.
When you swim you 90% of your forward propulsion is generated by your upper body, therefore 90% of the training effect is in your upper body.
When you dive (competently) you don't use your upper body.
Therefore an upper body fitness assessment is not as specific as it needs to be for diving instructors.

As for my swim coaching abilities, my point was that if someone was a marginal fail, that could be easily rectified by an hour or so in the pool with some front crawl technique training. As for the PADI DM tests, do you only have to complete the distance to get one point still, and you need only a certain amount of points from five disciplines? If your mate can't swim 400m he frankly has no business diving, much less applying to a course where he will be responsible for others.
Im sorry but you dont need to be so patronising.

What study are you talking about and where do you get your figures about percentage of muscle use?

In very simple terms I believe you are now being deliberately offensive. Perhaps you are a professor in physiology, a home learning course in sports physiology is far more likely. The bottom line to all this ridiculous behaviour is whether or not diving professionals should be held to a certain standard of fitness through-out their careers. I believe this is an acceptable ask for diving professionals, certainly those who see this as their main career and not something they do as a hobby for cudos or another badge to add to the collection!

The level of fitness does not warrant a new study inspecific muscle groups nor a percentage of upper body propulsion compared to lower. Black and white, fit or unfit. This can be easily ascertained by a very simple test; swimming being relevant only because this is a water based activity. I note we haven't considered a cross country ski as an assessment and this too has a majority of lower limb exersion in contrast to upper body.

As for my 'mate', he is not, and never will be, if I have anything to do with it be a DM. It is a long time since i did a PADI test, but from memory their are only four parts to the test. IMO they shoud be done at the same time with a minimum of rest between the parts.

You thought that my 'mate' had no business diving, swimmingad problems swiming 400 metres, all i can say is that it does not seem to have held him back, in fact he is just back from Egypt, diving for about 15 years so far.

Anyone can apply for any course they wish, i dont know of one that has an entry requirement of a 400 m swim. The exit requirement is what is important. One of the reasons that the stamina test is so important for me is that, it is a self study, and must be done by the student, if they wish, it is a measure of comitment, IMB.

Nevertheless you are entitled to your opinion x
 

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Dive without politics
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The whole thing of 'an instructor who is as fit as a fiddle'... don't see any premiership coaches that can outrun and outplay their players.
So if its not the fitness side of things...
HSE and assistants take care of the instructor dropping dead...students would be looked after - the odds would be better if HSE or governing bodies insisted on loads of unfit buggers than one superhero.
so if its not that...
wtf is the problem?
Need a hero to worship and will feel cheated when you find out you are physically superior?

So - a basic "they won't drop dead tomorrow" is all that's needed.
HELLO.............. You are not a premiership coach, and to be honest i am suprised you dont see the diferance.
 
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HELLO.............. You are not a premiership coach, and to be honest i am suprised you dont see the diferance.
No I'm not - I play front row (rugby, not the round ball nonsense), so am reasonably fit - but a shit swimmer - I can pass the times - but only just - and have got worse over the years as I'm so conditioned to finning now.
Doesn't prevent me telling others to swim faster, or swim for me tho.. like coach will instruct his team to play better without being able to outpace them on the pitch.

Ok, if your the only one in the water with students you need to be peak, but I don't see why an 'old codger' (and I don't mean me! )who doesn't pass the swim 'fitness' shouldn't instruct as long as he is backed up by a team that can.
 

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Dive without politics
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No I'm not - I play front row (rugby, not the round ball nonsense), so am reasonably fit - but a shit swimmer - I can pass the times - but only just - and have got worse over the years as I'm so conditioned to finning now.
Doesn't prevent me telling others to swim faster, or swim for me tho.. like coach will instruct his team to play better without being able to outpace them on the pitch.

Ok, if your the only one in the water with students you need to be peak, but I don't see why an 'old codger' (and I don't mean me! )who doesn't pass the swim 'fitness' shouldn't instruct as long as he is backed up by a team that can.
Its such an easy test to pass, i dont get what the problem is.
 

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Having reread this, I seem to have come across a touch more condescending than I meant too, my apologies for that!!
You are quite right, and I apologise. I am certainly no professor but I do hold a BSc in Sports Science with over 10 years experience in the fitness industry most of which spent as a Personal Trainer working with endurance athletes and triathletes. So whilst not a professor, hopefully a little bit more than a home study course.

I am in total agreement with you on the need for an industry standard level of fitness. However if people's jobs are going to be on the line then some real thought needs to go into what constitutes a standard level of fitness. Cross country skiing would indeed be an excellent way to measure cv fitness for dive professional as it utilises most of the bodies muscle groups at the same time, although not terribly practical in terms of applying the test! The only reason I suggested running is because it is predominantly lower limb based and is an easy test to do from a logistics point of view.

Forget percentages of propulsion and try this simple test instead. Next time you in a pool swim a length and try and get a feel for how quickly and easily you are moving through the water,then get a float and hold it out in front of you, essentially taking your upper body out of the equation,and see how much slower you are and how much harder it is.

With regards to George, my point was he undoubtedly can swim 400m, but maybe not that quickly, but he could make his points up in other areas such as the tread water. Surely you would agree with me that if a person couldn't actually swim 400m they would be a danger to themselves participating in a sport where in an emergency situation they may need to swim at least that far?

Once again, apologies for offence caused, however I do stand by my opinion that a swim test is a very bad way of ascertaining dive fitness.
 

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It would therefore follow that as the main muscle groups used when diving are similar to those used when running then a running test would be a much more suitable fitness test for a diver to perform.
Surely the best sort of fitness test for a diver would be tests performed in diving gear such as a tow or scuba swim ?! Although training enhances specific muscle groups it does have a knock on effect whole body wise for things such as VO2max, recovery times and so on. Aerobic exercise is going to get the heart working more efficiently, shorter recovery and give someone more of an ability to handle exercise than doing nothing at all.


You can't pick out heart attacks or not but you can use pointers. Its not really questionable that when you factor in a lot of people those that are obese are far more likely to suffer from heart and other issues than those that aren't. There is a much higher chance of a clinically obese chain smoking whale than a relatively average thin person having some sort of incident.

Ive got no problem with an instructor being asked to demonstrate all the skills he's teaching at any time with no notice and that includes any fitness tests specified by the agency. The only issue i do have if its done abroad is that of who actually ensures these are fair? There are already a large number of highly questionable instructors signing up DMs who havent done all or even half the course and fitness stuff for example with certain nationalities and countries. If your mate at work is ensuring the standards are made then how can that be shown to be independent and fair? If you require an external assessment you have the issues of organising it, travel for the instructor and/or examiner, the cost associated and so on.

Same for a test built into HSE - its expensive enough as it is without having to find a pool for an hour!
 

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If you want to be good at something, you need to practise a lot. I see that most of those discussing this subject have made thousands of posts on YD. That makes you all good at Internet forum discussions.
I would humbly offer that if you want to be a good instructor/diver you need to do at least 500 dives per year. I do a lot but little more than half that figure. It's all about in-water experience - and that means in the ocean. I have seen some very fit people (such as a TV Galadiator) be quite out of their element in the sea. On the other hand, Stan Waterman (90 this year) lives up to his name!
 
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Again you have spectacularly missed the point! I'll see if i can spell it out more simply for you.

Cardiovascular fitness is specific to the muscle groups you train.
When you swim you 90% of your forward propulsion is generated by your upper body, therefore 90% of the training effect is in your upper body.
When you dive (competently) you don't use your upper body.
Therefore an upper body fitness assessment is not as specific as it needs to be for diving instructors.

As for my swim coaching abilities, my point was that if someone was a marginal fail, that could be easily rectified by an hour or so in the pool with some front crawl technique training. As for the PADI DM tests, do you only have to complete the distance to get one point still, and you need only a certain amount of points from five disciplines? If your mate can't swim 400m he frankly has no business diving, much less applying to a course where he will be responsible for others.
If 90% of your power is coming from your upper body when swimming you are doing it wrong ;)

Here's my take on the fitness thing. Fitness does not have anything to do with being a good academic instructor, however in water fitness will be useful. Nobody would argue that a fit diver will decompress better than an unfit diver so a dive professional should be a good role model. Furthermore as a dive professional you have a duty of care to your students and a diver in good health would be better able to handle the stress of rescue (and less likely to need rescue themselves). Good unfit instructors would be better if they were fit.

Does fitness assess fitness - yes. Is it the only measure - no. Can you swim faster when in very bad physical condition as a good swimmer compared to Olympian with no technique - yes. But swimming is important to be around water so why not combine some watermanship with a fitness assessment?

I teach for GUE we have to be assessed every 3 years to make sure we are still up to standard, we have to complete annual fitness test and we have to conduct teaching and personal dives in each year. Could somebody still slip through the net and deliver poor instruction - I would say yes ... but there is an attempt to prevent it. I was an instructor for two other agencies for more than 10 years and they never asked for anything other than annual fees to keep me current.
 

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If 90% of your power is coming from your upper body when swimming you are doing it wrong ;)

Here's my take on the fitness thing. Fitness does not have anything to do with being a good academic instructor, however in water fitness will be useful. Nobody would argue that a fit diver will decompress better than an unfit diver so a dive professional should be a good role model. Furthermore as a dive professional you have a duty of care to your students and a diver in good health would be better able to handle the stress of rescue (and less likely to need rescue themselves). Good unfit instructors would be better if they were fit.

Does fitness assess fitness - yes. Is it the only measure - no. Can you swim faster when in very bad physical condition as a good swimmer compared to Olympian with no technique - yes. But swimming is important to be around water so why not combine some watermanship with a fitness assessment?

I teach for GUE we have to be assessed every 3 years to make sure we are still up to standard, we have to complete annual fitness test and we have to conduct teaching and personal dives in each year. Could somebody still slip through the net and deliver poor instruction - I would say yes ... but there is an attempt to prevent it. I was an instructor for two other agencies for more than 10 years and they never asked for anything other than annual fees to keep me current.
Ok maybe over egging the point with 90% but the leg kick in front crawl in used more to keep the lower body up in the water rather than forward propulsion which is gained from the catch phase of the arm stroke. If this is not the case with your crawl then with respect, you are doing it wrong! ;)

I agree being a strong swimmer is an important attribute for any diver, but as a measure of dive fitness there are many more suitable tests. That was my only point!
 

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Tommy Simpson powered up that hill in the tour de France. Anyone would have said he was supremely fit up until the point when he dropped dead.
 

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Tommy Simpson powered up that hill in the tour de France. Anyone would have said he was supremely fit up until the point when he dropped dead.
No he crawled up the hill before the extra strain on his heart caused by the amphetamines he was using to boost his performances killed him.
 

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just a thought any level of fitness an instructor needs, Dont all divers need simlar with an instructor in the water in the uk you would hope they have a safty diver too...

but divers dive as buddy pairs so both need to be fit. I think its more important that the dive buddy is fit so he can rescue me :)
 
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You are quite right, and I apologise. I am certainly no professor but I do hold a BSc in Sports Science with over 10 years experience in the fitness industry most of which spent as a Personal Trainer working with endurance athletes and triathletes. So whilst not a professor, hopefully a little bit more than a home study course.

I am in total agreement with you on the need for an industry standard level of fitness. However if people's jobs are going to be on the line then some real thought needs to go into what constitutes a standard level of fitness. Cross country skiing would indeed be an excellent way to measure cv fitness for dive professional as it utilises most of the bodies muscle groups at the same time, although not terribly practical in terms of applying the test! The only reason I suggested running is because it is predominantly lower limb based and is an easy test to do from a logistics point of view.

Forget percentages of propulsion and try this simple test instead. Next time you in a pool swim a length and try and get a feel for how quickly and easily you are moving through the water,then get a float and hold it out in front of you, essentially taking your upper body out of the equation,and see how much slower you are and how much harder it is.

With regards to George, my point was he undoubtedly can swim 400m, but maybe not that quickly, but he could make his points up in other areas such as the tread water. Surely you would agree with me that if a person couldn't actually swim 400m they would be a danger to themselves participating in a sport where in an emergency situation they may need to swim at least that far?

Once again, apologies for offence caused, however I do stand by my opinion that a swim test is a very bad way of ascertaining dive fitness.
Got to admit, that's me out, I'd never be able to swim 400m front crawl in full dive gear on the sea surface! Not to mention waves and current.
 

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400m? That's what boats are for!
 

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Ok maybe over egging the point with 90% but the leg kick in front crawl in used more to keep the lower body up in the water rather than forward propulsion which is gained from the catch phase of the arm stroke. If this is not the case with your crawl then with respect, you are doing it wrong! ;)

I agree being a strong swimmer is an important attribute for any diver, but as a measure of dive fitness there are many more suitable tests. That was my only point!
If you believe the total immersion guys (and some other swimming books I have) most of the power comes from the core in front crawl not upper body. Certainly made my swimming 20-30% easier virtually over night
 
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