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Stage Cylinder Marking

11K views 100 replies 30 participants last post by  NotDeadYet  
#1 · (Edited)
I know there are differences of opinion when it comes to stage cylinder marking. I have set out my thoughts on this below. This is what I teach but I would be interested in an serious arguments aganst this approach.

Edit - I have edited the post beloow to clarify a few points that I didn't make clearly enough and to take into acount the comments up to page 4.

Stage Cylinder Marking
One of the biggest dangers facing the technical diver is breathing from the wrong cylinder and in particular, breathing a rich nitrox mix at depth which will almost certainly lead to oxygen toxicity. For this reason it is essential that all stage cylinders are analysed before use and labelled accordingly. This marking should take 2 forms;
1. The maximum depth at which the gas can be breathed, known as the maximum operating depth or MOD, should be clearly marked on the cylinder in a position where the divers buddy can clearly see it.
2. The contents, MOD and other information such as date analysed should also be marked on the neck but this can be smaller and less obvious.

It can cause significant confusion of the diver or the team use a mixture of percentage and MOD markings on cylinders, i.e if one diver marks up their cylinder with the percentage and another marks theirs with the MOD. For example if a cylinder is marked up as 50 then does this cylinder contain 50% and can be breathed at 21m or does it contain a mixture with 26% Oxygen that can be breathed at an MOD of 50m? Similarly a cylinder marked 21 could also be 50% that can be breathed at 21m or it could be Air .

In order to avoid confusion it is essential that the cylinder is primarily marked with the maximum operating depth (MOD). This means that we can instantly tell that a cylinder marked 21 is breathable at 21m. To be even more explicit it can also help to write 21m or even MOD 21M rather than just 21.

Where the contents are marked, this should be smaller and include a percent sign to confirm that it is a contents reading, e.g. 50% or 50% 21M or 50% MOD 21

There is occasionally reluctance amongst some divers to use the MOD as the primary marking and they will sometimes use the contents. This doesn’t really make sense. They claim that it is important to always know what you are breathing. This is only partly the case, what we really want to know is the partial pressure of the gas we are breathing, or rather that we are not exceeding a partial pressure of 1.6. Without doing a partial pressure calculation in our head the only way to be sure of this is to know the depth at which we hit the 1.6 maximum partial pressure, in other words the MOD. If knowing the MOD is the ultimate goal then why not just write it on the cylinder!

Some divers will mark up their MOD using permanent markings. This is fine if you always have the same mix but can cause problems with incorrect fills, non standard gasses, air top ups, switching cylinders or travelling abroad. For this reason temporary markings using gaffa tape or simillar can offer greater flexibility.
 
#2 ·
I am no tech diver expert, but if you assume that there will always be some degree of narcosis at depth, then calculating MOD on the fly doesn't seem like the best plan.

I would agree that nice, clear marking "MOD 21m" visible to both yourself and your buddy, who should check what you're doing before any switch, seems like the safest option.

Cheers, Chris
 
#3 ·
I know there are differences of opinion when it comes to stage cylinder marking. I have set out my thoughts on this below. This is what I teach but I would be interested in an serious arguments aganst this approach.

Stage Cylinder Marking
One of the biggest dangers facing the technical diver is breathing from the wrong cylinder and in particular, breathing a rich nitrox mix at depth which will almost certainly lead to oxygen toxicity. For this reason it is essential that all stage cylinders are analysed before use and labelled accordingly. The maximum depth at which the gas can be breathed, known as the maximum operating depth or MOD, should be clearly marked on the cylinder in a position where the divers buddy can clearly see it. The contents and date analysed should also be marked but this can be smaller and less obvious. It can cause significant confusion of the diver or the team combine depth and MOD markings on cylinders. For example if a cylinder is marked up as 50 then does this cylinder contain 50% and can be breathed at 21m or does it contain a mixture with 26% Oxygen that can be breathed at an MOD of 50m? Similarly a cylinder marked 21 could also be 50% that can be breathed at 21m or it could be Air . In order to avoid confusion it is essential that the cylinder is primarily marked with the maximum operating depth (MOD). This means that we can instantly tell that a cylinder marked 21 is breathable at 21m. To be even more explicit it can also help to write 21m rather than just 21. Where the contents are marked, usually on the neck, this should be smaller and include a percent sign to confirm that it is a contents reading, e.g. 50%. There is occasionally reluctance amongst some divers to use the MOD as the primary marking and they will sometimes use the contents. This doesn’t really make sense. They claim that it is important to always know what you are breathing. This is only partly the case, what we really want to know is the partial pressure of the gas we are breathing, or rather that we are not exceeding a partial pressure of 1.6. Without doing a partial pressure calculation in our head the only way to be sure of this is to know the depth at which we hit the 1.6 maximum partial pressure, in other words the MOD. If knowing the MOD is the ultimate goal then why not just write it on the cylinder!
EDIT: Re-read and you'd already covered team involvement in the correct identification of cylinders.

Completely agree.
 
#4 ·
Back when I was diving OC and long before id herd of GUE / DIR stile diving we all used to mark our tanks on the neck with gaffa tape or a label like this:

Image



Until about 2005 id never seen a tank marked in any other way. Then I became aware of GUE stile diving and I noted their standardized deco gas list and the way they used permanent large lettering on their tanks.

I thought this was an excellent idea but I was concerned that they only displayed MOD. For the GUE divers they had a standardized system so that was fine because part of the system was not to dive with non GUE divers. Confusion was therefor avoided by common training standards.

For non GUE divers there was a problem.

50% was displayed as 21 which could easily be air

35% was displayed as 36 which is another standard Nitrox mix but fortunately its the same as the gas

21/35 was displayed as 60 which again was not and uncommon nitrox deco gas

I decided that seeing as I was diving with non GUE divers it would be best to show the gas as well as the MOD to avoid possible confusion

Image


Image



One thing that quickly became apparent is large lettering on the side of the tank was for the benefit of on land/boat and buddy ID and was pretty useless for me actually diving the gas. On one occasion where i was diving all stages left i became nervous and took the tank off so i could read it my self as I couldn't ID the tank by just looking down.

In order to fix this I went back to putting the gas analysis on the neck of the tank. This is much easier to read than the lettering on the side

So now I do both neck labeling with mix using a sticker and i have the large letters on the side. The neck label is for me.

As an aside:

Having dived this system for about six years now i have noticed various problems with it.

First off is tank clutter.

Here I am with my nicely marked up tin of 80%

Can you read the tank?

No neither can I because my goody bag and lift bag are in the way.

The only bit of the tank you can see is the neck.

Image



And heres another problem.

During deco we usually face each other. So here's Janos on deco with me and I cant ID his gas. Note i can see the neck of his tanks clearly

Image



So big markings on the side of the tanks is nice but unless you dive with nothing on your stages except a reg? they can be less than ideal. AN if your not using a neck ID for your tanks and your facing your buddy for the gas switch? Id be less than 100% confident he can clearly ID your on the right mix so again Id want the neck marking to double check with.

I still think standard deco mix and permanently marked tanks is a great idea but for the purpose of my personal id I still put the actual gas mix on the neck.


Actual gas mix is far more useful to me than MOD.

Permanently marked tanks suffer from blending errors. My 80% drop tank currently has 88% in it due to a fill error. So the MOD is out. Not a big drama as I have it clearly marked on the tin with the new 8m MOD but the tin still has the original misleading labels on it.

On this tin i had some 14/65 for a deep dive bailout and i air topped it to use as shallow dive bailout.

Image



Because i can see its 36% He rather than the standard 18/45% I know i can go a bit more Bhulman on the deco as I have reduced helium. If the tin had 18/55 in it id be less inclined to blow the deeper stops.

Thats much more useful information than MOD 80m which would b the same for 18/36 as it would for 18/55

We are told using MOD avoids divers having to work out the MOD of a gas?? OK fine thats why I put MOD on the tin as well but frankly if you don't know the MOD of four or five standardized deco gases you really shouldn't be down there.

ATB

Mark
 
#7 ·
Back when I was diving OC and long before id herd of GUE / DIR stile diving we all used to mark our tanks on the neck with gaffa tape or a label like this:

Image



Until about 2005 id never seen a tank marked in any other way. Then I became aware of GUE stile diving and I noted their standardized deco gas list and the way they used permanent large lettering on their tanks.

I thought this was an excellent idea but I was concerned that they only displayed MOD. For the GUE divers they had a standardized system so that was fine because part of the system was not to dive with non GUE divers. Confusion was therefor avoided by common training standards.

For non GUE divers there was a problem.

50% was displayed as 21 which could easily be air

35% was displayed as 36 which is another standard Nitrox mix but fortunately its the same as the gas

21/35 was displayed as 60 which again was not and uncommon nitrox deco gas

I decided that seeing as I was diving with non GUE divers it would be best to show the gas as well as the MOD to avoid possible confusion

Image


Image



One thing that quickly became apparent is large lettering on the side of the tank was for the benefit of on land/boat and buddy ID and was pretty useless for me actually diving the gas. On one occasion where i was diving all stages left i became nervous and took the tank off so i could read it my self as I couldn't ID the tank by just looking down.

In order to fix this I went back to putting the gas analysis on the neck of the tank. This is much easier to read than the lettering on the side

So now I do both neck labeling with mix using a sticker and i have the large letters on the side. The neck label is for me.

As an aside:

Having dived this system for about six years now i have noticed various problems with it.

First off is tank clutter.

Here I am with my nicely marked up tin of 80%

Can you read the tank?

No neither can I because my goody bag and lift bag are in the way.

The only bit of the tank you can see is the neck.

Image



And heres another problem.

During deco we usually face each other. So here's Janos on deco with me and I cant ID his gas. Note i can see the neck of his tanks clearly

Image



So big markings on the side of the tanks is nice but unless you dive with nothing on your stages except a reg? they can be less than ideal. AN if your not using a neck ID for your tanks and your facing your buddy for the gas switch? Id be less than 100% confident he can clearly ID your on the right mix so again Id want the neck marking to double check with.

I still think standard deco mix and permanently marked tanks is a great idea but for the purpose of my personal id I still put the actual gas mix on the neck.


Actual gas mix is far more useful to me than MOD.

Permanently marked tanks suffer from blending errors. My 80% drop tank currently has 88% in it due to a fill error. So the MOD is out. Not a big drama as I have it clearly marked on the tin with the new 8m MOD but the tin still has the original misleading labels on it.

On this tin i had some 14/65 for a deep dive bailout and i air topped it to use as shallow dive bailout.

Image



Because i can see its 36% He rather than the standard 18/45% I know i can go a bit more Bhulman on the deco as I have reduced helium. If the tin had 18/55 in it id be less inclined to blow the deeper stops.

Thats much more useful information than MOD 80m which would b the same for 18/36 as it would for 18/55

We are told using MOD avoids divers having to work out the MOD of a gas?? OK fine thats why I put MOD on the tin as well but frankly if you don't know the MOD of four or five standardized deco gases you really shouldn't be down there.

ATB

Mark[/QUOT
An excellent,well structured argument and approach Mark. It makes a lot of sense. My thoughts would be that if you were on a dive where there was likely to be the need for deco gasses you would assume that other divers undertaking that dive should be able to understand the rudiments of gas mixes and their use.
I analyse my own gas always and mark it in the way that i understand...that way i feel there is far less chance of a mistake being made than just relying on any system that requires compliance to that system just to keep other people happy and content....at least that way if i do fuck up ill have nobody to blame but myself!!!
 
#5 ·
Mr Chase makes a very eloquent arguement in favour of neck markings, and against permanent large lettering down the sides for the reasons he has stated - I'm with him on this.

IMHO, when on the back of the boat my buddy and I (or two if its a course/team) do a buddy check, here we make sure stages are L/L R/R. The stages are marked clearly on the neck with users name, XX % and MOD XX - now if someone cant understand a % symbol then I'm not sure they should be doing Tech diving, and if they've messed that up and dont know what MOD means then they should take up golf.
 
#6 ·
Mark's covered it for me, very well put (and illustrated). I wouldn't go for the on-the-side permanent cylinder marking either:

  • I don't keep the same gas in the same cylinder all the time
  • the mix can be out and I do air tops
  • I would not mark something that I could not see myself
  • When abroad I do not take my cylinders so some temporary scheme would be needed there (back to gaffa-tape I guess)
  • My preference is to always dive the same way and not chop and change - not all buddies would follow the GUE markings (most buddies are not GUE trained)

I have nothing against the system proposed, and of course if this is how your group dives then it is standard and consistent, but IMHO it's not so useful in practical term and it doesn't scale all that well.

I also do not see the disadvantage of putting "50% 21M" on the neck and or side on a bit of tape.

Regards
Matt.
 
#33 ·
Mark's covered it for me, very well put (and illustrated). I wouldn't go for the on-the-side permanent cylinder marking either:
I have never suggested permanent marking. i will edit my post to make this clear. All I am suggesting is MOD marking, this can quite happily be on gaffa tape.

  • I don't keep the same gas in the same cylinder all the time - Neither do I, thats why I use gaffa tape to mark up % and MOD
  • the mix can be out and I do air tops- so do I, thats why I use gaffa tape to mark up % and MOD
  • I would not mark something that I could not see myself - Neither do I, thats why I mark up the neck and body
  • When abroad I do not take my cylinders so some temporary scheme would be needed there (back to gaffa-tape I guess) - I've just done a week diving in Sri Lanka on HMS Hermes, all of my cylinder were marked up with % and MOD, this was done with, you've guessed it, gaffa tape.
  • My preference is to always dive the same way and not chop and change - not all buddies would follow the GUE markings (most buddies are not GUE trained) - If my cylinder has MOD marked on the body and & and MOD marked on the neck then who wouldn;t be happy to dive with this?


I also do not see the disadvantage of putting "50% 21M" on the neck and or side on a bit of tape.
Neither do I, that's exactly what I proposed. I appologise for not making this clear in my original post.
 
#8 ·
I learnt to do a helicopter turn and hence read my buddy/teams tank markings when gas switching. Oh and not to carry shite over important, potentially life saving, markings.
I don't know why, yet again, GUE are mentioned, again. There are other agencies available.
If a diver can't understand '21m' then maybe they should stay out of deep baths never mind gas switching.
 
#9 ·
Point is there is more than one way to skin a cat and not everyone dives as a team or even with the same bunch every week! Its probably more important to cover off this kind of thing in the pre-dive.

As someone who predominantly dives as a loose team on shallower dives with a solo mentality (to 60m) and team bailout when deeper (60m and deeper), then I put more emphasis on being able to identify the mix solo and don't rely on the team to help.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I generally agree with most of what Mark says but on this one apparently not.

I like a nice big MOD (21, 70, whatever) on the side of the tank, with the 'm' for meters, and on both sides. If I am with a buddy and I am going to use this tank, then I wave the thing energetically at him/her so they can see the marking and wait for a switch confirmation. If I am diving with Jesus, then it doesn't matter much either way.

On the tank neck, which is what I look at myself, I like the actual mix, and the MOD as well, written clearly, by me, in a way that I am expecting and can understand myself and easily see past the loop hoses. If necessary I will unclip the tank and bring it out in front of me to look at.

I think this is also what Mark Powell is proposing, and I can't see what harm it does. I know nothing about GUE. If I have goodie bags, SMBs or whatever obscuring the markings, then it doesn't really matter what it says - so again, what harm having MOD written on. If my buddy does something different then that is totally fine, I hope he/she/it will tell me, and I will tell them what I do, and I will endeavour to remember it for the duration of the dive but in stress pit I can't promise to be perfect, just do the best I can.

Toodle pip!

Le Baron.
 
#15 ·
Not realy im being safe, while im doing a gas switch my buddy or team members are watching me check what im going to be switching onto, they will be monitoring the depth so we dont exceed the MOD, the MOD is all you need to know, I will also check my depth before I shove the reg in my mouth, on the pre dive brief we will all know 21 means 21m metres nothing else, simple metres only, not % not buiscuts, not bananas but metres if you dont understand something plane and simple you shouldnt be doing gas switches.
Why try to complicate something thats simple with more unnessary info than you need.
 
#18 ·
Reliance on everything being perfect and known....

Reliance on there not being any variables, no issues, no possibility for faults....

Reliance on the people and the dive to be performed perfectly....

Reliance on nothing going wrong....

From my side, having dived with enough cavers in enough places, with enough "standard" configurations, ive learnt that only a fool would have 1 sticker and 1 sticker only on ANY decompression cylinder..
 
#19 ·
I ave three stickers. One has my name on it so I know which one to put in the car. A small one has the mx, pressure, date and a signature to s.how my team before they get in the water with me that I have analysed my gas on the day I will use it. And then a massive one has the MOD, which whether you think it foolish or not is the only piece of information relevant to me underwater.
 
#20 ·
In the (limited) deco dives I did - some with a buddy, others with Jesus - I went for MOD in 3" letters with a little 'm' (because there was room on the home-made stickers).
I had my name.
I had the mix on the neck.

I never did a 'proper' deco/ANDP course, but the markings seemed right, as a lot of other people on the boats used the same:) Sheep-like maybe, but before I did it, I had a good think about it, and it seemed to make sense to me:)

Chaseys marking makes sense to him (and me, TBH - but the mix sticker is too big for my liking)

What works for people works for them - if they decide to dive as a team, they should agree on Std markings.

If what people choose works for them and their buddy/team/whatever then go for it. Nobody should be ramming their method down anyone elses throat - like a certain someone on here, again, sigh.
 
#23 ·
To be honest, I would only be deco diving with people I've dived with previously. Im not likely to buddy up on the boat for a deco dive, besides, I only dive two deco gases so only have experience in distinguishing between two cylinders, I'm sure it's scalable but I have yet to dive with 3 or more stages.

Purists?
 
#35 ·
To be honest, I would only be deco diving with people I've dived with previously. Im not likely to buddy up on the boat for a deco dive.
That's admirable but not always practical.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Knowing the mix is important for bottom bailout bottles for two reasons:
1) For a 40m dive, I could be on a bailout bottle that's breathable down to 100m (eg 10/70); 60m (eg 18/55); or possible even air (21/00).

2) MOD only doesn't tell you anything about the amount of Helium in the mix.

Janos
 
#37 ·
I have edited the original post and copied it below to clarify a few points that I didn't make clearly enough and to take into acount the comments up to this point.

Stage Cylinder Marking
One of the biggest dangers facing the technical diver is breathing from the wrong cylinder and in particular, breathing a rich nitrox mix at depth which will almost certainly lead to oxygen toxicity. For this reason it is essential that all stage cylinders are analysed before use and labelled accordingly. This marking should take 2 forms;
1. The maximum depth at which the gas can be breathed, known as the maximum operating depth or MOD, should be clearly marked on the cylinder in a position where the divers buddy can clearly see it.
2. The contents, MOD and other information such as date analysed should also be marked on the neck but this can be smaller and less obvious.

It can cause significant confusion of the diver or the team use a mixture of percentage and MOD markings on cylinders, i.e if one diver marks up their cylinder with the percentage and another marks theirs with the MOD. For example if a cylinder is marked up as 50 then does this cylinder contain 50% and can be breathed at 21m or does it contain a mixture with 26% Oxygen that can be breathed at an MOD of 50m? Similarly a cylinder marked 21 could also be 50% that can be breathed at 21m or it could be Air .

In order to avoid confusion it is essential that the cylinder is primarily marked with the maximum operating depth (MOD). This means that we can instantly tell that a cylinder marked 21 is breathable at 21m. To be even more explicit it can also help to write 21m or even MOD 21M rather than just 21.

Where the contents are marked, this should be smaller and include a percent sign to confirm that it is a contents reading, e.g. 50% or 50% 21M or 50% MOD 21

There is occasionally reluctance amongst some divers to use the MOD as the primary marking and they will sometimes use the contents. This doesn’t really make sense. They claim that it is important to always know what you are breathing. This is only partly the case, what we really want to know is the partial pressure of the gas we are breathing, or rather that we are not exceeding a partial pressure of 1.6. Without doing a partial pressure calculation in our head the only way to be sure of this is to know the depth at which we hit the 1.6 maximum partial pressure, in other words the MOD. If knowing the MOD is the ultimate goal then why not just write it on the cylinder!

Some divers will mark up their MOD using permanent markings. This is fine if you always have the same mix but can cause problems with incorrect fills, non standard gasses, air top ups, switching cylinders or travelling abroad. For this reason temporary markings using gaffa tape or simillar can offer greater flexibility.
 
#44 ·
if you have 2 numbers (either mod or % ) there is chance for confusion in low viz/stress.

ie... 40 ?

with 4 numbers and a line there is less chance of a cock up.


eg 18/35 .

on a sticker on the neck .
 
#49 ·
If you are diving 50/50 for deco gas then you have more money than sense IMHO. As far as I am aware this is not a standard gas.
Ironically Col Jim Miller of the WKPP who just died from breathing the wrong gas at the wrong depth, probably lasted around an hour at 60-70m at a PPO2 of 3-4, breathing exactly this gas mate

I would happily use 50/50 as a deco gas, if it weren't for cost. That he lasted an hour at this huge PPO2, tells you a lot about Helium and CO2 I believe

Jim was much loved and known for being ultra meticulous. He was universally (both within GUE / WKPP and in the wider cave diving community in North Florida) respected as a guy who always does things properly and carefully. As was Carl Spencer before him

We all think we're too smart to get caught out, we can always spot their fatal mistake. I only hope that I'm smart enough and humble enough to spot what it is that's out there waiting to catch me?

Do exactly as Mark says and you won't go wrong - it's just how I mark bottles

Any other information is irrelevant. Can you breath it at this depth from the big clear marking in metres on the outside of the bottle, failsafe checked by another team member. You can work out what's in it from the smaller markings on the inside once you've safely switched to it and then plug those numbers into your computer

"18/45 MOD 66" seems innocuous enough sitting at a computer, calm and relaxed, but for me it's two too many sets of numbers, when you're suffering the huge perceptual narrowing and task loading that's brought on by the stress of an incident. Don't work out a strategy for when things are going right, work it out for when things are going horribly wrong.

This is the shit that continues to kill good technical divers year in year out folks. Better people than any of us

Please, please don't let it be you - we've lost too many good people already :(
 
#55 ·
I have a problem with gaffa tape - my markings rub off. I've currently got mod and mix written on the tank in marker pen. I have a regular buddy and we both dive ccr lean left and rich right. We both have the same stage mixes so that keeps things easy. Should he need a reg in a hurry take the one on my left. If it is not a long hose and/or it has a band over the mouth peice then something has gone badly wrong. To need my stage in a hurry his breather will need to have failed, his bail out failed and his auto air overlooked. Other than that a gas switch should not be a stressful event. If it is a bail out ascent we should know the cylinder is getting empty. Appreciate this might not read across to oc diving
 
#59 ·
okay, this is my final post on the matter, but to use an anology, theres a reason why McDonalds put a warning on their cups of coffee advising that the contents may be hot, or why you find on the packet of peanuts, warnings that the contains may contain nuts.....

We live in a less than perfect world where the unexpected happens.. you'll never be blamed for providing too much information, but you'll have you're a'rse ripped out of you by a savage pit bull if you do not provide enough...